Cage Match 2011: Finals — Vin versus Quick Ben


The Contestants


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Quick Ben.jpg

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Age: Early 20s
Race: Human
Weapons / Artifacts: Obsidian knives; coins

Ben Adaephon Delat
Quick Ben
Age: Indeterminate
Race: Human
Weapons / Artifacts: Body contains twelve souls; magic
Special attack? Try special attacks. As a master of twelve warrens of magic, Ben can bring the pain in dozens of ways.

The Breakdown


  • An incredibly talented Mistborn Allomancer
  • Hardened from life on the streets
  • Skilled hand-to-hand fighter

  • Genius-level intelligence
  • Can access seven of his twelve warrens of magic at the same time
  • Combat-experienced

  • She’s tiny

  • Like in an interview, we think he’d answer this by saying “My only disadvantage is that I’m perhaps a bit too powerful.”


  • Solomon Kane
    More like Solomon Kan’t. Anyone?
  • Pug
    It was a quick kill
  • Severus Snape
    Oh snap…Snape got beat
  • Perrin Aybara
    It’s must have been incredibly improbable for Quick Ben to kill a ta’veren…because he just did

How we think the fight will go

She had no choice—she needed to use her atium.

The match had started as it usually did for her—a Push off a coin on the ground, a spread-shot of coins at her opponent, a glimpse with Iron to see if the man had any metal on him (he didn’t)—but his reactions were so different than any of her other foes. For one thing, Quick Ben didn’t even pretend to be nervous.

For another thing, he didn’t stay on the ground.


“Neat little trick, girl,” Quick Ben called out. He floated amongst the currents of air above the stadium, curious as to what she would do next. He didn’t fear that she could hit him with her coins, but he also didn’t think she’d just lay down and take it, either. Normally he wouldn’t have let himself get in this situation, but it was pretty hard to set up a trick before the match started.



The world went black.

Vin smiled.


The coin slammed into Quick Ben’s shoulder, the pain of it excruciating.

It wasn’t exactly clear how she had penetrated the darkness of Rashan, but he wasn’t one to dwell on it too long, either. He watched as she threw down another coin and came hurtling towards him.

This time it was Quick Ben’s turn to smile.


Vin pulled out one of her knives, hoping to draw the obsidian blade against Quick Ben’s mahogany throat. But as she flew towards the mage—Tin piercing the darkness, a spray of coins shooting out from her hands—she suddenly found herself falling, as if her Push had been cut off…


The ground below Vin shifted as Quick Ben used the Warden Tennes to cause the earth to thrust violently upward…disrupting the coin that Vin was using as her anchor. At the same time, the High Mage caught a few more coins to his body, and he too began falling.


…Vin reached into her pouch and dropped another coin, Pushing as hard as she could away from the undulating ground. She looked towards where Quick Ben had been, but didn’t see him. The Tin still burning, though, she heard a THUMP, and realized the mage was back on the ground. Glancing at the place she had heard the sound, she saw he was definitely injured. She threw another coin down and leapt, hoping she could jump behind him while he got his bearings.


He more than got his bearings…

He healed himself.

Still concealed in darkness, he silently ascended back into the air, and did something Vin had done once.

He brought back the dead.


As she landed, the atium shadows startled her, as Quick Ben was nowhere close. She didn’t hesitate, though, and dropping yet another coin, she flew to a different part of the stadium, twisting around to see something she would never have expected.

Jon Snow, Zed, and Logan Ninefingers (no Eric Northman though, with no actual corpse to speak of after his beheading)…very much real.


Even as he animated the dead, Quick Ben realized that the help he had called on might not actually have been the best call. Even as they moved to strike Vin, two of them—Snow and Ninefingers—were flying through the air at him. In the case of Snow, it was the armor Vin was using to fling the warrior at Quick Ben. With Logen, it was the knives strapped all over his body.

The two of them crashed into Ben, and once again he was falling.


Her atium ran out.

No matter. She knew he wasn’t out of commission, but she also knew he was in dire straits. So Vin burned Pewter and ran to where Quick Ben was going to land, easily outpacing the undead wizard behind her.

Another coin dropped—she was running low—and she flew into the air, a knife in her hand again.

No matter what she thought of his condition, she wasn’t stupid enough to run right into the arms of Quick Ben.


Instead, she leapt right into them.

The illusion was so real—and the bodies of Jon and Logen were definitely real, and so it was quite a shock when Quick Ben’s long fingers wrapped around her arm and, with the other hand, deftly plucked the coin pouch from her belt and the second knife from her sleeve.


Vin burned duralumin, flaring her Pewter and breaking free of Quick Ben’s grip. She sliced out with her knife, and even the tiny amount of pressure—now backed with duralumin-enhanced pewter—created a deep gash in Quick Ben’s chest. He cried out in pain, but didn’t fall. Rather, he flew away from Vin.

Who realized he had been pulling her away from the coin she had Pushed off of.

The ground waved and rolled, jutted up and gaped open. The amount of metal on the floor seemed to increase, too, and when she burned Iron, the blue lines seemed a blaze of color—a solid wall instead of individual strands. As she reached out to Pull something, anything, she could use to Push off of and halt her fall, she too often Pulled on nothing.

Nothing but illusions.

She finally pulled a coin to her, but even as it flew up to reach her, the ground shot up to meet her.


Quick Ben floated down to the ground, landing softly next to the battered body of Vin. It would take him a while to heal, but at least he could heal.

Vin wasn’t so lucky.

That wasn’t to say she wasn’t trying, though. She was lying on her back, and somehow moving her arm, trying to take something out of her cloak.

He kicked her in the side, and when she flinched, he reached down into her cloak, finding vials full of metal flakes floating in liquid.

“None of that, little girl,” he said grimly. He shook his head. Normally this was someone else’s task.

But he wasn’t squeamish. And as he plunged Vin’s own knife into her chest, he only paused a moment to consider the lives he had taken in this tournament…

“Damn!” he said, cutting off Hood’s Path before the three corpses made his victory bittersweet.

He smiled, and looked back down at Vin.

“You were good, girl.

“Just not quick enough.”

Predicted Winner: Quick Ben


Check out the previous match!

Check out the Bracket

Vin is a character from the Mistborn series by Brandon Sanderson; Quick Ben is a character from the The Malazan Book of the Fallen series by Steven Erikson

Vin image courtesy of Chris McGrath. Quick Ben image courtesy of Michael Komarck

  • Knight Commander Loki

    This will be a battle to remember!

    ~ Team Quick Ben ~

  • cicero


  • cicero

    By the way Suvudu, mad props on the write-up. Fanboys will nitpick (and we have been since day one) but you guys rose to the challenge. Vast, vast, vast improvements made, IMO, with every Quick Ben write-up.

    ~ TQB ~

  • Crump

    Quick for the win!


  • Torrin

    I’m firmly in the Quick Ben camp but I’m a little confused….is Vin unconscious when Quick stabs her because I thought that Vin could flick metal away from herself because she has metal within. I thought metal weapons were uselss against Mistborn…or does Vin have a non-metal knife? I don’t actually know if this is accurate and was just wondering since I haven’t actually read the books myself and am just going off what others have told me.

    Quick Ben for the win!

  • Brother JGPHSB

    Vin’s knives are obsidian. It was mentioned a couple of paragraphs in.

  • caladanbrood

    C’mon Quick!

    Very much the best write-up Suvudu have done regarding Quick Ben. The self-healing is still a bit over-the-top, but if it lets him win, I’m not gonna complain!

  • Tiam

    Self healing aside a solid write up, though I can still never forgive them for the Solomon Kane one…


  • margam

    Yes, Vin has obsidian knives. Mistborn tend to use nonmetal weapons in case they have to fight someone else who has that ability

  • Torrin

    It would make sense for Mistborn to have non-metal weapons so that they couldn’t be used against themselves in a fight with other Mistborn.

    Yeah, the healing bit doesn’t sit well with me but with or without it Quick still would have taken this win.

  • FastWave

    Quick Ben’s victory will come with blood and honour!

  • Knight Commander Loki

    I must say that I particularly like the last line – “Just not quick enough.”
    It feels to me like something Quick would say.

    For Quick Ben’s Glory!


  • Nice write-up. Go Vin! Anyone know if Sanderson is going to get involved with this one?

  • Tapper

    Since when is Quick undead, though?

    Tapper, Team Quick Ben cheerleader.

  • @TankSpill – It seems unlikely that he will do a write-up for a few reasons, but I’m still kinda hoping he will anyway. I’m holding a contest for best write-up, though:

  • Knight Commander Loki

    @Tapper – Where does it say he is dead?


  • Yocxl

    Yeah, says earlier in the match she’s using her obsidian knives. Might’ve been smarter since she’s not facing Mistborn to use metal daggers, just in case, but I guess none were available. Or she didn’t think to.

    Anyways, go Vin!

  • Silas

    Admittedly, I’m not voting for Vin because I necessarily think she would win. I’m voting for her because I’d never even heard of the “malazan” books until this cage match. And because the Mistborn books are the best books I have ever read. And because I like Vin. And because, while don’t know anything about this “Quick Ben” fellow, Vin has (SPOILERS FOLLOW) defeated both a immortal-emperor(who ruled with an iron fist for a thousand years), and a god(of the “I can throw planets into the sun” variety).

  • lil’ Coco

    @Silas – Pfft, you think that’s something? You need to read the books! Quick Ben could do both of those things in his sleep 😀

  • Kolo Navi

    Silas – so read the books, you wont make mistake, beleieve me 😉

  • Bombur

    @Tapper: The ‘undead wizard’ referred to is Zed. QB is very much alive.

    @Silas: Another Malazan recommendation for you!

  • CraftyBastard

    Let’s do this.

    Quick Ben FTW!

  • Quick Ben lolcat

    I can has win? You bet I can has!

  • lil’ Coco

    @Quick Ben lolcat


    Quick Ben is so cool that he makes omtose phellack feel like summer!

  • Rebecca Wack

    Quick Ben in the front seat

    Vin in the back seat

    Gotta make my mind up

    Which vote option shall I take?

    We we we so excited!

  • @Rebecca – Keep in mind that Saturday comes before Sunday!

  • Torrin

    So far this cage match is so match friendlier then the last. I even think Ilike some of these Branderson fans 😉

  • btowl1818

    @ lil’ Coco

    Haha but they do say that shortly before dying of hypothermia, you get really warm…

  • Huhster

    Not to take issue with the pictures but Quick Ben is black and is described as such by Tattersail in The Gardens of the Moon, in fact many Seven Cities natives are quite dark including Kalam.

    Oh and hell yes for Quick Ben.

  • Erunion

    This is a tight match – Quick Ben is the only one of Vin’s opponents that could actually beat her.
    Still, I think that Vin would win. Barely, and it would likely be a Pyrrhic victory, but I still think she would be able to pull through.
    She does have one advantage that, while not terribly useful against other opponents, would really help her against Quick Ben – Electrum. Burning Electrum would allow Vin to see what Quick Ben is trying to do to her, and with the mind-enhancing effect of Atium burning at the same time, would be very, very useful.
    Soothing and Rioting would also be very useful against QB (and any other mage, for that matter). Either could be used to throw QB off at a crucial point in the fight, allowing Vin to finish him off.

    Still, kudo’s to Suvudu for one of their better write-ups. Well done!

  • From what I’ve read about Quick Ben I still think that Vin has a chance, though I think it would be a close one. Everyone is saying that Quick Ben is intellegent and can think well on his feet, well so can Vin!

    This is my version of events:

    Please tell me what you think, but bare in mind that all I know of Quick Ben is what I’ve read, so instead of making things up for him it is all in Vin’s point of view, and I didn’t want to show QB too badly.

    Just before you judge too, Vin doesn’t win because of Atium, though she does use it at one point!


  • WHassinger

    The problem here is that you have two massively different kinds of magic going on here. Quick Ben uses something more like Sword & Sorcery type magic where there are really only three types of magic user: no magic, hedge wizard, and godlike. He’s godlike. Vin is godlike, but from a crafted system, one with distinct rules and laws that can be understood without too much hand-waving or “because it’s magic” reasoning. We know exactly how crazy skilled she is because she pushes the boundaries of what’s possible in her magic system. Ben is incredible and powerful, but it’s almost impossible to gauge effectively because there’s little frame of reference for his abilities. At least in what I’ve read.

    In the end, I’m going to vote Vin simply because the S&S magic user should be defeated by the less powerful hero. The precedent is well established.

  • Bauchelain

    Here’s my version. Sorry if it’s a bit long.

    Two black men – one tall and lean, the other much similar to a bear – stood on a hill. On the ground was a doll to which strings were tied.
    ‘So,’ the tall one was saying ‘you put your knife on the ground and then…’
    ‘Yes,yes,fine.’ The other one started unsheathing a knife the colour of rust.
    ‘Not the otataral one, idiot! Hood’s breath, Kalam, we’ve been doing this for years!
    ‘Sorry. So, if you’re in trouble you tug the strings and I pull you back. Are sure this’ll work?’
    Kalam grunted. ‘Sure as in “I’m sure I’ll come once you’ve thrown these acorns”?’
    ‘Again with Malaz City? Kalam, I’ve already explained…’
    ‘Fine, whatever. Good luck, Quick.’

    Then a warren opened and Quick Ben was gone.
    His hands were tingling. Which was kind of normal seeing how he had spent hours preparing the ritual. Quick Ben wanted to end this quickly. He had important things to do at home, like cheating gods and saving the world.
    He stepped out of the warren…and was hailed by half a dozen coins travelling towards him at impossible speed.
    He managed to enter another warren but it was close. So, this Vin didn’t play fair? Well, he would act accordingly.
    He exited the warren, more or less behind his opponent…and again coins sped towards him.
    As he retreated again, the wizard wondered how she had known. It seemed a change of tactic was needed. He summoned forth Meanas and created an illusion of himself, adding strands of Mockra that whispered: hit me,hit me.
    Nothing. The girl had completely ignored his illusion and had again anticipated him. It was like she already knew what he was going to do.
    Fine, he’ll give it another try and then leave, this tournament be cursed.
    He left the warren and yes! Finally the Lady was smiling at him. His opponent had her back at him and was lifting a vial to her mouth.
    Quick Ben grinned as he unleashed his ritual, six warren woven as one, sure that only a charred corpse would remain. Then the grin faded: his wave of death was noisier than an avalanche, not exactly a sneak attack.
    And in fact the girl spun around, lifted herself in the air way above his magic attack and sent other coins at him.
    This time, however, Quick Ben stood his ground. All that warren hopping was tiring him,anyway. He awakened Serc and a whirlwind scattered the coins. A flick of his hand and the whirlwind grabbed Vin sending her crashing to the ground.
    Before he could finish her, however, he felt a perturbation in the air currents behind him and moved as a coin was pulled towards him. As such, instead of boring itself in the wizard’s head, it him in the arm. By the Abyss, the pain!
    And then he heard a soothing voice in his mind telling him to stay there and just lie down.

    Vin smiled as she saw the Brass having effect and moved towards her enemy.
    But what Vin could not know was that Ben Adaephon Delat was not alone. Eleven other souls shared his body who, having already cheated death, had no desire to die.
    And so, together they fought the Brass effects until Quick Ben was once again lucid. Just in time to open D’riss, the warren of stone, and stop the obsidian daggers descending towards his hearth.
    The wizard grinned as he saw the look of surprise on Vin’s face and then opened a hole under her feet.
    The fall was long and the impact hard enough to shatter Vin’s legs. Suddenly, the hole filled with water from the oceans’ depths and Quick watched to be sure that the lethal pressures of Ruse crushed her body to a pulp.
    Then he tugged at his strings and waited for Kalam to bring him back.

  • Knight Commander Loki

    Unfortunate thing about discribing Quick Ben’s power is that you really can’t do it without giving away multiple spoilers. It would be easy to give examples of just why Quick Ben would win in this fight but you would give away polt and character developments that even some Malazan fans haven’t gotten to yet.

    Vin seems to have a great deal of power and talents to use but from what I have been told by people who have read the Mistborn series and the Malazan series it just isn’t likely that she could defeat him – she could give him a good run for his money, but I’ve yet to hear a convincing way she could take him out that addresses all of Quick Ben’s talents and power.

    For Quick Ben’s glory!


  • Serenegoose

    The way I see it, if Vin can hit Quick Ben, it’s over, because there’s no reason Vin wouldn’t use that opportunity to push a coin through his brain. If he has means of defending against that (I really don’t know, but given how people act towards him it seems likely), then yeah, it becomes interesting. Vin doesn’t do theatre, and she doesn’t play around. I can’t imagine Ben does either, so despite (or because of) their ability to push on through serious wounds, I can’t see the fight lasting longer than a few seconds either way, since both of them have to kill more or less instantly or risk only inconveniencing their foe. Either Ben does something I have no idea he can do and zots her, or Vin kills him with severe cranial trauma. I voted Vin, but I hope this will be an interesting match.

  • Valas

    Thank you for a write up that does justice to both characters. This is how I think it would have gone.

  • LEO

    At this point Vin leads by a grand total of 2 point… wow lol… neck and neck… idk how ‘powerful’ Quick Ben is because i have never the books…. but i think an interesting battle technique for Vin that was never utilized: How do you feel right now? what would you do if you didnt feel anything at all… i think that if someone didnt fell anything at all no emotions very suddenly they would freeze… maybe just for a couple of seconds or even less.. she throws a coin and burns iron, brass and Duralumin all at the same time… the coin is flying extreamly fast at the same time QB freezes for a split second from the sudden shock of losing all feeling, coin in the head fight over… Thats my thoughts on the fight thought it will be a very tough fight for Vin

  • jrh1524

    Vin for the win! Go Vin!

  • Dunno

    Quick takes it. Hell, I don’t even like Quick and I know that.

    Resist the Sanboys!

  • lil’ Coco


    That’s assuming she was actually fighting Quick ben and not an illusion to begin with and even then he has ways – QB tis sneaky sneaky. He doesn’t like to get his hands dirty.

  • AHEM

    Excellent! This year we have two contestants who actually deserve to win. I’m pulling for Vin, but Quick Ben is a worthy opponent and fully deserving of having come this far, so if he wins, that’s not so bad.

    Here’s my version of this fight:

    Vin pushed off from a coin, hard as she could, clearing the way before an enormous blast of fire filled the area that she had stood in.

    Wonderful, Vin thought. Another wizard.

    The dark-skinned man’s head snapped up, tracking her movement. He was different from the old man that she had killed, faster, more alert, more determined. This would be no easy battle.

    Vin landed on the other side of the field. She had arrived in this strange world, healed and rested again, and known that the last of these battles was imminent. Across her back, she wore the beautiful steel blade that she had taken from her last opponent. It felt incredibly odd to her to carry a metal weapon so blatantly on her person, like a solider who didn’t understand the first thing about Allomancy. However, she had learned from her previous encounters and researched the nature of this world, and her opponent. For all his powers, this wizard was no Mistborn.

    Something shot by her, and only the shadows provided by her atium and reflexes enhanced from within saved her from it. A blast of pure darkness that ripped through the air, the mere presence of which caused every hair on her body to stand up. It was as if someone had condensed the all-consuming essence of Ruin into a ball and shot it at her like a coin.

    Vin rolled, her body unnaturally graceful with flared Pewter. She still carried several more vials at her belt, one of which contained her special weapon. She had immediately sought out a cooperative person upon arriving in this strange world and, with the right combination of Soothing and Rioting, got him to scrounge up what she’d need. In the process, he had shown her something special, a new metal that she had never seen or encountered before.

    Vin pulled out a handful of coins and Pushed them forward, but the cloud of metal bifurcated a moment before it hit Quick Ben and flew harmlessly to the sides. Vin sensed a powerful, alien pulse as the sorcerer opened another one of his Warrens, and something blasted against Vin’s mind, a direct assault. She gritted her teeth and flared Copper, and the attack on her mind became distant, muted out.

    Then, Quick Ben disappeared.

    Vin turned around, flaring tin, but there was no sight of him. Unless . . . Vin burned iron and steel, and blue lines materialized out from her chest to point in every direction, to the coins she had scattered everywhere, to the vials at her own belt.

    And to a tiny, thin line that ended in thin air.

    A trace amount of metal on Quick Ben’s body.

    Vin spun around, pretending to be confused, presenting a front to Quick Ben, and pulled a single coin out. Just as her atium warned her that fire was about to engulf the area, she spun, the Pushed the coin right at the spot where she knew Quick Ben to be.

    There was a grunt of pain, and Quick Ben became visible again, staggered as a coin bit into his left leg and nearly hobbled him. Vin Pushed off from a coin and hit the ground only several feet away from him running. She pulled out the looted sword and swung.

    Quick Ben ducked at the last moment, the blade swishing through the air a few inches above his face.

    The momentum of Vin’s charge carried her forward, away from Quick Ben. Before she could turn to attack again, the sorcerer rose, and Vin felt more bizarre pulses come from him as he opened seven Warrens at once. Atium shadows came to life, and Vin clearly saw what was going to happen next.

    Uh oh.

    Vin Pushed again, sending herself airborne, keeping herself far above the ground as Quick Ben unleashed his powers anew. Golden flames rushed by, unnatural shadows leaped up to ensnare her, the ground itself exploded open. If the battlefield hadn’t already been strewn with coins, she would never have been able to evade them. As it was, it took all of her effort just to keep herself out of his attacks.

    There was no option left, she would need to use the special metal. She pulled the vial from her belt in midair, but just as she did, Quick Ben sent all of the coins beneath her flying with a wave of his hand, clearing the battlefield. Deprived of anything to Push against, Vin fell through the air.

    She flared pewter, and her unnaturally strong legs absorbed the shock of the harsh landing, but they nearly buckled, and the vial slipped from her fingers, falling several feet away.

    Vin dove for it, but without warning the earth beneath her feet suddenly became . . . no longer there, leaving her over an enormous pit. She fell, and caught the edge by a finger’s breath. Her pewter-enhanced muscles flexed, pulling her back up with one swift motion. She rolled, and snatched up the vial. It was a gamble, but she needed it. She downed the contents in one swift motion, refreshing her waning reserves and adding a new one, a metal she had only practiced with a short degree.

    It had worked, but retrieving the vial had put her directly in the path of another raging blast of fire. She saw it coming with her atium right before it hit, but she couldn’t move quickly enough to evade it. She was going to be engulfed.

    The flames washed over her, but as they did, they passed aside harmlessly, negated completely. A gust of cold wind blew through her hair.

    Quick Ben paused, taken aback. “You have otataral!” he said.

    Vin nodded. “Found it shortly after I got here. A metal that could dampen the power of wizards seemed quite interesting.”

    “That can’t be,” Quick Ben said. “Otataral would prevent you from using all but the Elder Warrens, unless . . . what are you?”

    Quick Ben reached for an Elder Warren, but he had to close one of the seven he had opened now, and he wasn’t fast enough. Vin burned the secret metal, and the effects of Otataral spread across the area. Quick Ben screamed out as his Warrens were slammed shut, his access to them cut off. He fell to his knees.

    Vin approached, drawing the sword she had taken from the Warg. “My powers come from metal,” she said, her voice as cold as the wind that had flowed from the failing magic. “Otataral, external pushing metal. Who would have thought?” With one powerful swing, she decapitated the wizard.

    Vin sighed out, resting the side of the bloody blade across her shoulders. Well, that was that, then. An interdimensional competition to the death fought between the people of countless different worlds had been won, countless deadly scenarios escaped, and two warriors with strange powers, one blood-drinking monster from beyond the grave, and two powerful wizards slain.

    It looked like the day’s work was over. Now that that was done with, Vin thought she should get back to Scadriel before Ruin destroyed everything in her absence. Tomorrow was going to be another eventful day.

  • irriadin

    This is such a hard fight. Quick Ben wins in sheer magical muscle, unless Vin has the powers of Preservation… in which case I think the power swings to her side in an equal amount. Vin is a very resourceful fighter… but so is Quick Ben. In the end, I think this comes down to speed. Quick Ben cannot tank hits, he doesn’t have much defensive protection. All it takes is one Duralumin-enhanced push from Vin and he’s in big trouble. Close one, but I think Vin would come out on top.

  • Knight Commander Loki

    Anyone who knows Quick Ben well knows that he always has a shaved knuckle to work with – usually it’s Kalam.

    It is my belief that in a fight between Vin and Quick Ben that wasn’t contrived like this one, Quick Ben would use his ability to duplicate, through wave after wave of earth and air and would unleash his power so fast and intensely that Vin would be too focused on not being knocked down and trying to defend that she wouldn’t notice Kalam step out of the shadows with a blade ready to still her heart. And no, it wouldn’t be a metal knife because Quick Ben and Kalam are reknowned for knowing their enemies abilities before engaging them.

    Quick Ben for the win!


  • Tal

    Ha ha haaa! Where’s your inexplicably vast fan support for a mediocre series NOW, Vin?

  • Quickening

    @Tal – Jon Snow fan? 😀

  • Serenegoose

    Tal: I’d imagine they’ll turn up at some point tonight, since that has been, every time Vin has had a voting surge, when it occurred. Funny how subjectivity works though – Mistborn is by far my favourite book series. I couldn’t even begin to describe it as mediocre. Oh well.

  • John

    Quick Ben – Unbelievably powerful, especially since his confrontation with Icarium when he was ‘stretched’. I mean the dude takes on a trio of dragons…

    If you compare them within the relative power levels of the their worlds then I might be more inclined to take Vin. The Malazan world is so filled with big hitters that it’s impossible to say exactly where any one character ranks, in fact the power levels of characters have really started to spiral out of control. Whereas Vin is pretty dominant in the Mistborn world.

    Still, in a direct confrontation, gonna have to take Quick Ben, he’s bad ass.

  • Biggles

    I’m sorry but there is no way Quick Ben would lose to Vin. I mean, Vin is awesome and would give Quick a fight but it would be a fast, quick battle and Quick would win for sure. He has a greater range of abilities then Vin – she good but she isn’t Quick good.

    Also, I love the whole Team Quick Ben unity thing that some of you have going on – very cool.

  • @Tal – Her victory was never inexplicable – the 4000-vote lead came after the WoT Facebook page (with over 22,000 likes) was called to vote. However, most of them probably weren’t paying much attention, and they don’t realize that today’s subsequent tweet was not for the same match (they think they’ve already voted). It’s hard to ask much more from casual Facebook fans – we’re not going to bug them about it overly. Jon made an amazing comeback the next day, but it should hardly be surprising that it wasn’t enough. If it makes you happier, you can look at it like this: ASOIAF fans are more critical and less likely to vote for something just because someone tweeted/Facebooked it. 😉 But in reality, there are probably also a lot of WoT fans who are getting annoyed about it right now. Consolation matches are no fun, even if you won last year.

    For those of you who don’t follow Suvudu on Twitter, they just posted this:

    Nice blog.

  • Dave

    I love this! Great fight, but I really don’t think that allomancy could be fooled by illusion. Go Vin!

  • Oooh, this is going to be a great fight!

    *squees in delight*

  • Serenegoose

    Terez: I think that’s pretty much my thoughts exactly right there. 😀

  • Enoch

    I think they both have a chance (unlike Jon did against Vin or Perrin against Quick Ben). While I personally voted Vin, I won’t be too upset if Ben wins.

  • Michael

    Awesome. One week. I’m sure Sanderson will be doing a write up, can’t wait to see it.

  • Konjoi

    Great match. Even though Vin isn’t at full power in this situation I think that it would be her to take the win.Barely.

  • Biggles

    I’m I understanding this right and Sanderson plans to write a version of how this fight would go? Brave man, he’ll either be blasted for favouring his character or attacked for betraying his character. I wouldn’t be writing it if I was him

  • MTC

    @Biggles, I think it would be absurd of anyone to “blast” him for favouring his character. He should favor his character. It’s his character. I think anyone that’s reasonable will allow him a degree of bias, especially in a match-up as close as this one.

  • Indeed, no one would blast him for it. It’s expected. He might get nitpicked on QB, but I doubt he’d be blasted for even that.

  • Brother JGPHSB

    Maybe he could write two…

  • Knight Commander Loki

    I suppose it all depends on how well Branderson knows Quick Ben. Do we even know if he has read the series?

    I personally feel that regardless of what he writes he’ll get opposition for it but as long as it is well written and plausible I’ll be happy with it…….and that Quick Ben wins 😉


  • Ser Commander Loki,

    If you look at my contest blog, I posted what Brandon said about Malazan in the comments. He was impressed with it, but only read a book or three (not sure how far he made it). I think his career has been too distracting for him to get into heavy reads. He puts out books faster than SE.

  • AHEM

    Here’s the real reason why Vin would win:

    Quick Ben stood, opening himself to the power of seven distinct Warrens and drawing the power together, eyes searching for his opponent.

    He was no fool; he knew that the coming battle was inevitable, and had prepared for his opponent. He knew that this girl, whoever she was, had slain many to get her, overcome foes every bit as fearsome as the ones he had faced. He wouldn’t waste time; the moment he saw her, she would be engulfed in the flames of Telas.

    Quick Ben had researched her, and prepared a counter for every possibility of her attacks. He had illusionary decoys out to distract her, had demons and risen dead at his call should he need assistance, and if she stopped moving for a moment, he would remove the ground beneath her and drop her into a pit. He was prepared to deflect coins, prepared to wear her down until her mysterious power to foretell the future ran out, until she was exhausted and could be dispatched at his leisure.

    But where was she?

    There was no sign of her on the field, but then, the mists that hung everywhere on this strange world might be a small cover. But Quick Ben was in no danger; his real body was concealed in a web of invisibility, and several decoys were out on the field, wandering about, easy targets to distract her.

    Quick Ben heard a slight sound, a rustling of cloth, and turned his head. And there she was.

    For just one moment, Quick Ben caught a sight of Vin, coming down through the mists, falling from an enormous steelpush, as graceful in the air as a creature of the mists themselves, coming straight at his real body and ignoring his illusions as if she couldn’t see them. In her hands, wielded with strength disproportional to her size, was a six-foot blade.

    Ben’s eyes widened, began the first of a mental process that would unleash his magic, but in this crucial instant between time, Quick Ben wasn’t quick enough.

    Vin came down, blade swinging in a powerful blow, cleaving the sorcerer in half.

    She landed, pewter-enhanced legs absorbing the shock of the fall, and stood up. Only a mess remained of Quick Ben.

    “So, who’s next?” Vin asked.

    Quick Ben may be powerful, intelligent, and deadly, but Vin is just too badass to lose.

  • Jetson

    @ AHEM


  • jade

    I have not been able to vote yet but plan on voting Vin. I did however buy book one of the Malazan series. CageMatch has done its job. (Last year I bought Name of the Wind)

  • AHEM

    Okay, maybe Vin won’t win just due to sheer awesomeness points. But only because Quick Ben is a badass to match in his own world.

  • King Lear

    Go Quick! You sneaky snake of the desert!


  • Spectre of Eschaton

    I’ve never read Mistborn, so could someone who has tell me what kind of defense Vin has if

    *Dust of Dreams spoiler*

    Quick decides to transmute all the air around them into fire, like he did to wipe out those thousands of KCNR?

    Is she able to sustain herself without breathing and make herself impervious to heat, if so, at the same time? Given what Tayschrenn’s High Telas is capable of (disintegrating thousands of tons of stone with one blast) this would be much hotter fire than any natural flame.

    Unless I’m forgetting something, that’s QBs most potent and well-defined feat, so if Vin could counter that, it would be impressive.

  • Tal

    @ Terez, Quickening, Serenegoose:

    Yes…actually, Terez, Quickening had the right idea. I’m not hinting at foul play on the part of the Vin fan base, I’m just surprised that the fan base is that sizable, i.e. that there are that many people on fb who would actually CARE if Vin was going down.

    That said, last post was mostly the dirty little bitterness over last match talking, and Serenegoose is right: I can’t speak to what others like. For myself, I’ve always liked Sanderson, but never loved him. He’s always just been sort of there…solid and fun, but never exactly brilliant or dynamic. Like a Camry. Lots of people like Camrys. They’re dependable, you’re pretty sure you’ll get good quality for your money, and they do what they’re supposed to. On the other hand, they’re not Ferraris or Porsches or whatever. They’re just Camrys. They’re easy to use and sufficient. But not all that extraordinary.

    That’s pretty much how I’ve seen Sanderson and his books up to this point: that he was essentially getting reflected fame from Jordan. But Perrin lost and Vin won, and now I’m forced to reevaluate. *Shrug* Maybe it’ll make more sense if I reread it.

  • Craig

    I haven’t read Malazan and I quite enjoyed the Mistborn series (although I think it peaked in Book 1), but I think I still have to vote for Quick Ben. Vin is a highly proficient Mistborn, but that’s only a killer advantage against people who wear/use metal. Against a powerful mage with no need for weapons or hand to hand combat, most of her advantages are nullified. It doesn’t matter if she can see his attacks coming with Atium if his attacks have an area of effect or simply can’t be dodged.

  • Spectre of Eschaton


    Hence my question. Magic in Malazan often falls into that category of “unavoidable” if one doesn’t have some kind of supernatural defense to render them safe from harm. (From what you said, I gather Vin doesn’t?).

    It’s not mentioned in his stat sheet up there, but Quick can tap into the Holds if he’s really desperate. For those of you playing at home, Holds are more primal and savage precursors to Warrens, good for nothing accept widescale devastation (we’re talking magical nukes here, without any exaggeration. One (very precise) use of them near the end of Midnight Tides was a spell that would have committed complete genocide on a particular race, killing every member of it present on the planet at that time if it had been successful. Now, granted, the Holds are not QB’s specialty by any stretch, but they also don’t really require specialization; one does not, as a rule, control the Holds, just unleash them.. At the very least, they should be insurance of mutual destruction.

    He can also use Kurald Galain, the Elder Warren of Darkness, which something halfway between a Warren and a Hold, controllable to an extent, but awesomely powerful (I believe it’s capable of creating vacuums similar to out space. Again, can Vin do anything against this sort of attack?)

  • Blayney

    Who votes for a Suvudu video game?? I’d be all over that!!

  • I think Vin might need the power of Preservation to win this one!

  • Blayney

    oh and i guess i should say that Vin would own.
    Quick Ben is way to confident, she just needs to stick one of her blades through the base of his skull.. how he gonna heal then?

  • AHEM

    It’s neck and neck, going back and forth. This is anybody’s game. Awesome.

  • Serenegoose

    Spectre: Well, given it’s borderline knife-fight range, a nuke sounds somewhat self destructive. However, Vin, burning Atium, can see a few moments into the future (never specifically stated how many seconds to my recollection, but she can see attacks before the attack is ever made. She’s also got Duralumin, which massively amplifies her own powers in a one-shot burst, and brass, which she can use to dampen peoples emotions. It’s entirely plausible for her to use Duralumin and brass to create an instantaneous deadening of Bens Emotions to the point where he couldn’t -want- to tap into a hold, because he wouldn’t have any emotional state to form a desire from. If she burns steel at the same time, she could use this moment of emotional death to launch a coin through his face, since Quick Ben couldn’t even -want- to dodge it. It’s not as concrete as thought control, but she can make him feel absolutely nothing at all, and under those conditions, he couldn’t logically perform any action until he’d recovered, which would be a few moments after his grey matter was over the floor. This is why I believe the fight will be over in moments. Either Quick Ben has an ability to deal with precisely that happening (in which case, fair enough), and his overwhelming power will murderise Vin fast, or he doesn’t, and he’ll be dead within the first second of the fight starting.

  • crump


    Possibly but she’d have to be faster than Quick Ben and when you factor in his shaved knuckle Vin might find a dagger severing her artery.

  • Spectre of Eschaton

    Two points, in response.

    1.) One of Quick’s most proficient warrens is Mockra, the warren of the mind, so he could conceivably have defenses against emotional attacks. One of the things about Malazan magic is that the system is NOT very well defined, so none of us really know exactly what QB is capable of. It’s all speculation. I’ll grant you that Holds are probably out, since a.) they generally take some kind of ritual to open, and b.) as you said, they’d lead to at best M.A.D. unless Quick could somehow step into a warren the second the Hold opened.

    2.) I know it’s kind of unfair in this setting, but seriously, one of Quick Ben’s go-to spells is “Summon Kalam Meckhar, the 300-pounds-of-muscle, time-dilating assassin with the anti-magic-aura knife”. I know it’s not fair. Quick doesn’t fight fair. 😛

  • Hoid

    If Quick Ben gets to be at the height of his power…shouldn’t Vin be at hers?

    *Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler*

    I mean, after all, she becomes a god. I guess we don’t really know what all that entails, but I see something like this…

    Vin perched, peering down at the mortal man. Elend frowned next to her. \You know, it’s probably not moral to — \

    \Just finish this,\ Kelsier said from her other side. \He’s a nobleman, anyway.\

    Vin glanced at Kelsier. \You went to the trouble of finding that out?\

    He smiled. \No. It would be nice though, wouldn’t it?\

    The man shifted around the arena, searching for her. Vin shrugged. She hadn’t killed the Lord Ruler and then slunk off to let the world fend for itself. She might as well see these fights, through, too.

    Vin crushed him like a ant under her cosmic thumb.

    Elend sighed. \I’m sure we could have negotiated.\

  • fictionnerd

    Ok, I’ve got a question.

    Is Quick Ben portrayed at his most powerful? Now I know against all of her other opponents, Vin wouldn’t need Preservation, but against someone as powerful as Quick Ben appears to be, wouldn’t it only be fair to portray Vin at her most powerful, too? I say if they’re going to not put Vin in Preservation mode, then Quick Ben should be handicapped a little bit too… Anyone else agree?

    Now that said, I’m not sure she’d need preservation to win. (I’m with @AHEM. Vin is just Bad Ass.) What kind of mental defenses does QB have? I still maintain that the instant the fight starts Vin could hit him with Duralumin and Brass, completely eliminating any emotions/feelings. One character describes the experience as what he imagines death feels like. I would imagine this attack would incapacitate anyone long enough for Vin to shoot a coin through their head…

  • fictionnerd


    I posted right after you! I’m thinking the exact same thing. LOVE your write up. Perfect characterization. Gosh, I miss Kelsier so much…

  • Serenegoose

    Spectre: I think a problem with ‘summon ally’ in this case is that you’re really opening the game up. I don’t think Quick Ben so far has been set up as a ‘companion fighter’ like Perrin or Jon both were. If that was the case, then Vin should also be allowed to call on Sazed, Kelsier, or Elend, her companions (and all of whom she fights with) who would, I think, pretty easily turn the fight waaay in Vins favour. I agree the Mockra warren sounds like it could shield against her emotion-messing powers, but I think he’s going to need more than that. My key point is that Ben isn’t going to be able to make the first move in this fight – Atium absolutely denies the possibility, because the moment he has a move to make, Vin has already seen it and acted to thwart it, including taking any and all defensive moves he might make into account (since it’s seeing the future, she already knows what he did to defend himself and reacted accordingly) so we’ve got a pretty simple narrative here. He has as long as it takes for Vin to push a coin very quickly through his head, roughly a second, since these coins move with enough force to plough their way through an 11 foot tall giants head, we can assume they’re going -exceptionally fast-. We can also assume, since Vin is an exceptional shot and has Atium, that it will strike his head, regardless of any physical ‘dodging’ moves he makes. So he has to cast a spell within the rough second or so he has to act. If he can do this, fight goes on, I’d say he has the brute force to easily win and Vin won’t get a second chance. If not, Vin has already won.

  • johthohar

    AAAAHHHH! I almost read spoilers in the comments TWICE!!!! And I’m DETERMINED that the Malazan books be the ONE series I read where I don’t inadvertently come across spoilers before I get to them in the books!!! C’MON GUYS!!!!!! Lol. Looks like Quick has taken a 200 vote lead. I voted for him in this match up but it was a freaking tough decision! Like Sophie’s Choice!! I love both characters but I had to give Quick Ben the edge here. Even though he is massively more powerful I think his curiosity would override his caution a bit and Vin’s ruthlessness would take advantage of that. Even so, Quick Ben is just too badass to lose! Even to a badass like Vin!

  • Spectre of Eschaton

    We’ve never seen Quick Ben at the height of his power, and likely never will. He holds as much of himself back as conceivably possible when he fights. He’s neurotic like that.

    Depending on who the soul in him is that gives him access to Kurald Galain, he could be god-tier himself. The implications of the scene of the Spar of Andii could be read as him having some SERIOUSLY impressive parentage.

    As for the mental attack, again, it’s not out of the question that Mockra can shield against such things. Other warrens can provide physical wards, there’s no reason to assume that Mockra can’t protect him against any kind of emotional assault, being that he’s a High Mage of it. Also, the whole twelve souls thing might make that form of attack moot anyway.

    No one’s brought up Aral Gamelon yet, either. Quick could conceivably summon demons to his aide even more powerful than he is (assuming he’s at least Tayschrenn’s equal in summoning). Or is summoning against cage match rules?

    Something to keep in mind is that, given QB knows he’s going to be fighting, he’ll be going in with his warrens “opened”, so his Mockra shields, as well as any other wards he employs, will be in full effect. Any kind of psychological attack will have to get through those.

    Then there’s his acorns which no one has taken into account yet. He has all sorts of pre-cast spells stored in those which could conceivably turn a near loss into a win if he gets desperate.

    Really, the man’s options are kind of stupidly vast. And with no upper limit on his power ever stated, there’s no way we’ll ever be able to get a consensus here over who would win. Going just by established feats, god-Vin or whatever would kill him. I don’t buy that the emotional angle would work at all, and I just can’t see her winning from the way she’s been described unless Quick is being supremely overconfident for some reason, and doesn’t move to eradicate her in the most expedient manner possible, as soon as possible.

  • Spectre of Eschaton

    Gah, didn’t see the last post. Thanks for clarifying things, Serengoose.

    I’m not sure how to answer all that. it would take Steven Erikson coming in here saying whethert his opened warrens would shield him from the coins or not. There simply isn’t enough information. (Though he has D’riss, which has a metal aspect… could conceivably block the coins. Who knows).

    Good match up, either way.

  • Spectre of Eschaton

    Blah, triple post, but just wanted to add, I fully understand the issue with calling in allies. The problem is that Quick is, canonically, a summoner.

    On multiple occasions, he gates Kalam in through a warren portal (usually yanking him from whatever he was doing at the time) to help him out. And he has entire warren that focuses on nothing but summoning very nasty demons.

    To try and explain, his “allies” in Vin’s sense as far as I understand, would be Bridgeburner, the army company he’s attached to and fights with. Kalam is actually sort of one his *powers*, as is Aral Gamelon’s demon conjuring.

    It’s a tricky issue. Especially given how ludicrously powerful some demons are in Malazan.

  • AHEM

    Unless Quick Ben comes into the fight with numerous defenses already set up, I think Vin taking him down by mere speed alone is a strong possibility. Burning atium increases her mental speed, allowing her to sort through more information and make decisions more quickly, and burning pewter gives her body supernaturally keen reflexes. She might strike well before Ben can set anything up.


    With the power of Preservation, however, Vin wins wholescale. Quick Ben is powerful, but he can’t move/blow up planets with his magic. Vin at her absolute strongest is way beyond using magic or straightforward attacks, way beyond even the mightiest beings in the Malazan World. She wouldn’t even need to attack him; she’d think, and direct her power, and wipe him from existence. On top of that, she doesn’t really even have a physical form in her highest state for Ben to attack; she’s more like a metaphysical entity.

  • Gatekeeper

    You know that line in the movie Ronin, where Deniro says “I never walk into a room I don’t know how to walk out of.”? That’s Quick Ben to a tee when he’s all by himself. It’s the old “Batman would always beat Superman because Batman would always out think Superman” argument. Quick Ben never walks into something he doesn’t have a way out of, and that’s just using his mind. When you expand to other specialties, the second is his knack of running into more powerful things, and either killing them or turning them to his side. Pretty much at this point it’s his job, he is after all, a soldier. On top of that, it seems he takes pleasure in these things. So, he does these fights for work and a hobby. A more perfect killing machine would be hard to create.

  • Serenegoose

    Ahem: I think, as powerful as Quick Ben is, allowing Vin to have her End Boss Final Phase form might be a touch unsporting, especially given that she has it for such a short amount of time.

  • Spectre of Eschaton

    They call those types of beings Elemental Forces in Malazan, and, no real argument there, she’d squash Quick like a bug in that case. Even if

    *THE CRIPPLED GOD SPOILER, first chapter*

    as is hinted, Mother Dark (the first Elemental and creator of the universe) is his mother.


    As for the regular match-up, the only thing I can think of is extrapolation from other characters. We’ve never actually seen Quick take a hit (that I can remember), so we have no idea if he has any supernatural defenses. For instance, Raest, in Gardens of the Moon could hold his body together with his warrens, even after every bone was shattered and he was flensed by dragon breath. He literally couldn’t be killed by physical attacks. But… he was a Jaghut Tyrant, which Quick is not. There’s no info on any kind of special defenses he might have. He survived Icarium, for what it’s worth, who flayed him alive with raw Chaos.

  • Valas

    i can see this debate lasting forever. Vin obviously has some very well defined skills that allow her to be on the same tier as say Rand al’Thor and Richard Rahl. One thing I have not seen mentioned is Quick’s

    fight with Icarium

    This character is at the same level as any of these god-like characters and Quick stood toe -to-toe (not something we usually see out of Quick). Yet since Quick’s powers are not well defined, we dont know how he would do in a slugging match. Still, id give Quick’s resourcefulness an edge over the atium.

  • Bombur

    **Spoilers for Malazan and Mistborn**

    QB’s power doesn’t really grow over the course of the series, I think. He’s insanely strong at the start and stays that way. So the way he is portrayed in the fanfic is really the only way he can be portrayed. Even if I’m wrong about QB’s zero power growth, he could still do everything he did in the fanfic in book one.

    Vin should be at the height of her allomantic powers, and definitely not Preservation. Think of it this way. How would your characterise Vin, if you had to choose between kung-fu-mage or god?

  • Spectre of Eschaton

    When I said we haven’t seen the height of his powers, I meant that he’s holding on us. Every time he fights, he pulls some new trick out of his hat that bumps him into a higher tier of power. We have no idea what his actual limits are, which makes it very hard to judge this match.

  • Milamber

    Well, as Preservation, Vin has access to half of all the magic in her world and is physically invulnerable. A fair fight would be her against half the gods in Eddings world.

    As just Vin, before preservation, I’d still give her the edge vs QB, Atium and Duralumin are more than QB can handle without proper intel and preparation.

  • Bombur

    More than Quick could handle, no way.

    Quick could cause so much chaos and confusion and unleash so much destruction that atium might not make a lot of difference. How would atium save Vin from a nuclear strike?

  • Bombur

    More than Quick could handle, no way.

    Quick could cause so much chaos and confusion and unleash so much destruction that atium might not make a lot of difference.

  • Bombur

    ah that worked the first time, even though it said it didn’t.

  • Milamber

    @ Bombur: Yes,it’s more than he can handle. His ability comes from prep and understanding his opponent, Vin would strike so fast and so unpredictably he’d be dead before he could assess the situation. She killed a fist full of Steel Inquisitors BY HERSELF, and any 2-3 of them would have stomped Ben’s ass. Sorry, she’s too much for him when she’s full of metal and at the top of her game. Maybe if he knew her abilities and had time to plan he could get her, but not if you just drop them both into an arena.

  • Torrin

    So far, the main thing this cage match has taught me is that on a whole Branderson fans are an intelligent and friendly bunch. Nice to have a friendly opponent!

  • Craig

    @Spectre of Eschaton

    The only defenses I can remember Vin having is the ability to strengthen her body far beyond the norm through burning Pewter and shield her emotions through another metal (Bronze?)

    To all those who claim Vin should have the powers of Preservation, I’d argue:
    a. completely outside the spirit of the match up
    b. not mentioned in her stat sheet
    c. Vin is not exactly Preservation if I recall correctly, I thought she was more like it’s agent – ergo the powers of Preservation were borrowed and shouldn’t be considered in this cage match.

    Also, on the subject of Atium. I don’t think it ever allowed anything other than seeing somebody’s physical actions. There is nothing in there to suggest mind reading becomes possible on Atium. Therefore, it seems unlikely that Vin can predict QB’s offensive spells purely through the use of Atium.

    Further on Atium, wasn’t there a cheap way of getting around it that the characters discovered in the later books?

    All in all, it looks pretty dire for Vin. Unless she gets a sucker punch off, I don’t see how her powers can help her here.

  • Ben

    Normally I refrain from voting in matches where I haven’t read one of the books, or at least know something about both opponents. Not this time. I feel kind of dishonest about it, because I’ve never read Malazan Book of the Fallen, but . . . I’m voting for Vin. No rationale. I just am.

  • UseR2006


    I actually think Vin while using the mists in the last fight before becoming Preservation would be the hieght of her powers, she was supremely fast and her Allomantic abilities were fueled by the mists.


    Now if there is mist available in this fight i believe Vin should have access to it, especially if she is about to die or dying as is usually the case when she gains access to it.

    I voted for Vin.

  • AHEM


    Vin burns copper to protect her emotions. While burning it, her mind is immune to manipulation and her magic cannot be sensed by others.

    Vin can’t read minds with atium, but she can see both the future of her opponent and her own future (using another metal, electrum), so if one of Quick Ben’s spells had a physical effect, such as engulfing Vin in fire, then she would see it before it happened, and the enhanced reflexes she gains from atium and pewter would allow her to move out of the way.

    There was a way to counter atium, but that could only be done by a full Mistborn, by burning electrum. Quick Ben isn’t a Mistborn, obviously.

  • Chicky Babe

    OMYGODS I just found out bout this!!! Quick Ben is in a final! That’s hellz cool! He would so win this! Vin’s like awesome and I totally cosplayed herthe other week at Supanova!!! But Quick Ben is uber powerful and no way Vin could win!!!

  • Roldom

    Quick for the win, easily

    Vin sens a host of coins his way, he can just open up a warren and let the coins fly into that. All he has to do is be patient and send all the metal into one warren or another untill she has nothing left. Then casually kill her.

    Or he could just open up a portal to any warren and drop her in it. She may be good, but how about an eternity in Aral Gamelon with nothing but angry daemons to talk to? Or dropped at the bottom of an ocean…

    even if she could see five minutes into the future it isnt going to protect her from a 30ft square hole in space opened up where ever she happens to be at that second

  • gR

    In this match, I’d say, whoever lands the first shot wins. Neither has adequate defense against an all-out attack by the opponent. Nor could they hide from each other effectively. Both are smart and will figure this out. But Vin’s all-out attack is a shade faster. So it’s going to be Vin.

  • Cornwallis

    Steel Inquisitor’s, beating QB? Come on, the dude smites Dragons! He foils ascendants (essentially, Gods) regularly, and can survive going toe-to-toe with one of them as well!

    His power does grow. His *spoiler* fight with Icarium pushes him to his limit and beyond, and thus unlocks greater potential within him.

    And, I think a lot of you are confused about what Atium actually does. It forms a shadow of what the next action is going to be. Quick Ben isn’t going to be fighting with physical force or objects. Those atium shadows won’t be showing much of anything, considering the origin of his magic is from other realms. A lot of it isn’t going to be coming directly from Quick Ben at all, and he isn’t going to be doing any silly hand gestures.

  • caladanbrood

    Well, he might be making gestures, but seeing these won’t really help Vin, I don’t think – it doesn’t tell her what the effect is actually going to be…

    And of course, there’s always Kalam – his knife is Otataral, so Vin couldn’t manipulate it, and he’s always got Quick’s back in a fight… they are absolutely deadly as a team.

  • Lama

    Kalam’s knife is not just Otataral, as it is too brittle when pure, it has some iron component.

  • Jula Bole


    Allomancy is still a form of magic even if its rules are more rigid so otataral would at the very least lessen her control over it if not render it useless possibly.

  • Nefarias Bredd

    Wow, I never even realised Quick Ben got to the final. He would totally win this fight though – Vin may be powerful, but Quick Ben has the advantage of being incredibly cunning as well as powerful. And if he beat Pug, Vin wouldn’t pose too much of a challenge really!

  • Coltaine’s Betrayal

    I find it hard to believe there is a possbile scenario that covers all aspects of Quick Ben’s talents that would allow Vin to win. Even if the gods of Luck stepped in and Shadowthrone sent his hounds to aid her. Quick Ben’s powers may not be as defined as Vin’s but we know what he has done and we know he is capable of more. Even using examples of power and talents that we have seen/read him use and nothing more he would still be more than capable of defeating Vin. Anyone else in the comp and I would support Vinn in a heartbeat but not against Quick Ben – it’s just too hard to concieve an end that has Vin victorious.

  • Greg

    I find it odd that on the one hand people are saying it would be unfair for Vin to have the powers of Preservation, and on the other than Quick Ben’s powers are not fully known and rather undefined so that (it seems to me) he could win any time with effectively a Deus Ex Machina. Of course, I realise that that may be me slightly misunderstand what Quick Ben’s proponents are saying, but still. I guess I just think that saying that we don’t fully understand the breadth of Quick Ben’s powers is rather below the belt – all that people should work from is what is known now about them. It’s theoretically possible that by the time you find out about all of Quick Ben’s powers he’ll be as strong as god-Vin(!)

    Also, as regards atium: as I understand it, it shows you what people are going to do into the future – so it shouldn’t matter whether they are going to do magic or physical attacks. For example, it would show where a Mistborn was going to Push or Pull some metal in attack, and I think it would therefore only be fair if you grant it the same powers when it comes to crossovers with other universes and forms of magic. It shouldn’t matter where the origin of the magic comes from as long as Quick Ben is the one that puts the causal train of events in motion.

    Personally, I had to vote for Vin, even though I haven’t read the Malazan books yet, basically because as powerful as she is, the magic system is both incredibly tight, and incredibly well balanced in a way I can’t remember seeing in fantasy before (or at least fantasy I enjoyed reading) – it actually feels like another physical law of the universe. Usually I’d abstain from voting in this situation, but I like the Mistborn trilogy too much, sorry!

  • With Atium it shows the shadow of what is about to happen, so so long as the action is visible (and I reckon both fire and the earth collapsoing are viaiable events) then Vin would be able to avoid them.

    Unless QB can see into the future then there is no way he could win this!!!!


  • Tsiar

    Predicting that something happens is one thing, avoiding it – another. A very simple QB win scenario – he starts the fight in a warren, so there is no way for Vin to reach him, shows up few miles away and sets all the air around Vin on fire. The end.

  • Nefarias Bredd

    Quick wouldn’t have to protect himself with magic to stop the coins hitting him – he could simply open a portal into a warren in front of the coin and it would fly into the warren harmlessly… I don’t get the impression that the coins can dodge!!

  • Daniel

    @Coltaine’s Betrayal
    If you can’t think of any way that Vin could win the fight then maybe you aren’t trying hard enough.

    Imagine as such

    Vin meets Hoid
    Hoid tells Vin some secrets and loans her a sword and a suit of armor and explains how to use them.
    Vin Smiles

  • Daniel

    @Nefarias Bredd

    I suppose he could do this if he knew the coin was coming. It might be kind of hard if the coin is aimed at the back of his head though.

  • Nefarias Bredd

    How is Vin going to get behind Quick without him noticing? I haven’t read Mistborn, so I’m not entirely sure how it works…

  • Michael

    If this is a actual cage match taking place in let’s say a metal cage Vin would have a huge advantage has she would be able to push and pull herself all over the place never giving quick Ben a chance in the fight.

  • Kanubis

    If it was in the confines of a figting cage, QB could just unleash all his warrens and it wouldn’t where in the cage Vin was. Fighting him in a confined space wouldn’t be the best tactic at all.

  • For a start Vin could do the old trick of expecting her coins to move away and in fact manouvering it behind her opponant then durilium iron pull…

    ….bye bye Quick Ben

    I used that in my version of events (if you click on my name it’ll take you to my blog where it’s a post) and Sanderson does actually use it in the book so it works!


    If she sees the atium shadow, which is just ahead of the real thing then she can simply move out of the way. It doesn’t win her the fight but it does keep her alive, its a good defense technique. And it would work. So long as the attack was visable. Not too sure she’d be able to see QB’s atium shadows if he was invisable. I’d think she wouldn’t but not too sure. But even if he was invisable she’d still be able to see his visiable attacks!

  • Luci

    I’ve just read a tonne of comments and I can’t entirely remember who said what, so I’m just going to reply to the point itself.

    I don’t think it’s impossible for Vin to win this, but I think it’s unlikely.

    For those who say she’d win straight out with confusion and a coin to the head, or flaring steel with duralumin and then a coin to the head.
    If she flared the steel it uses up what’s in her body, meaning if she doesn’t kill him then, she’s dead (no levitating, nothing to throw at him to keep him at bay till she drinks more and drinking more would leave her very vulnerable). Vin sounds smarter than this.
    If Vin gets to enter the arena having already consumed metals, QB gets to enter with warrans unveiled.
    For those who don’t know, this means the reaction time of his magic is the speed he can think at (possibly longer for something realy powerful, but he can open gates and throw deadly magic at thought speed). And unlike Vin he wouldn’t have to draw something from his pouch to be able to attack her.

    If copper can stop Mockra, Mockra can stop brass and zinc.

    Greg, the main difference between his power and her powers of Preservation is that his powers are his, hers were borrowed (from what I hear) and, most importantly, hers were temporary. Were it a permanent upgrade it might be right to include them, but otherwise…
    I do agree it would be unfair to count what we haven’t seen him do, so everything I mention is either very reasonably extrapolated from what he has done or is what he has shown he can do 🙂

    To whoever said Delat relies on ritual and/or preparation. No 😛 He thrives on it, but in book 9, with no warning or preparation he faces down a fairly large number of powerful enemy mages at once (and that’s just one example).

    To whoever said he doesn’t grow in power, that’s not true. After the fight that keeps getting mentioned where he “stretches” himself he is much more powerful than to begin with. Prior to that he was never a powerhouse war mage like Tayschrenn (there is a quote where a fellow Bridgeburner is worried he’s going to die specifically because he’s not like those mages). Now he has that kind of power.
    For example his fight outside the gates of Coral. He did so well through clever use of power and got fairly warn out fairly quickly. Compare that to the above mentioned fight at the end of Dust of Dreams.

    Quick’s illusions are realistic enough that several actually ripped a bunch of soldiers to pieces and then got “killed” by the surviving soldiers, Vin would not be able to tell which was real or not. Tin or no tin.

    Daniel, if either can get behind the other without them noticing, it would be QB. On top of simply appearing there he can turn invisible and fly. At the same time… And likewise, atium wouldn’t help her if she would never see the attack (a ball of deadly energy hitting her in the back)
    Also, I fail to see how giving her a sword and armour would help…
    This is the final, both beginning the match facing each other and awake seems only fair.

    If atium shows the shadow of magic as it does physical things, then she’d see the shadows of any illusions too. So if QB threw waves of magic at her from all directions including above, with only one being real (the rest illusions) she couldn’t tell the difference with atium (atium allows her to see what act they take, not what effect it will have on her). So which way to dodge?

    She can levitate, he can fly. Her moving with “levitation” is not very manouverable. Once she sends herself in a direction, if he opens a portal inches in front of her she would be hard pressed if not unable to not fly through it. (So pulling herself all over the cage could be a bad idea Micheal :P) If it’s an inimical warren like telas or ruse (fire and sea respectively)…

    These are just the tip of the iceburg when it comes to possiblities on tactics on his part.

    I like what I’ve heard of Vin, she sounds like a great character (these matches have actually pushed those books way up on my to read list 🙂 ), and given the right circumstances she could probably kill Ben Adaephon Delat (but they would most likely need to be tipped in her favour). However, in an arena match, where both go in knowing the same amount about each other and it’s kill or be killed, QB has a large number of advantages. Things she has know way to counter.
    Quick is very powerful now, but much of what makes him awesome is his planning, his smarts and the pure diversity of what he can do (for those who have read it, his visit to Bauchelain and Broach are a good example of this). It’s how he was so good before he was very powerful.

  • Spectre of Eschaton

    The problem with that is the issue of avoiding his attacks. Malazan magic is AoE. She’d have to be able to cover hundreds, if not thousands, of feet in a split second. If he goes all out, QB can flash burn entire armies away in an instant. These are not targeted effects. Unless she’s teleporting (can she do that?), all her precog is going to tell her is how painfully she’s going to die. It doesn’t help that Quick can use more than one spell at the same time.

  • Knight Commander Loki


    You rarely post but when you do you say all the right things 😀

  • Tiam

    There seems to be alot of ‘QB could simply open a warren and let the coins fly through it’ comments. The only time we ever see a mage do that is Kamist Reloe in DG with the butterflies. The rest of the time its usally wards that protect people im thinking Lady Envy on a few instances (trying to avoid spoilers). Wards, even with some sort of metal buring to add force to these coins, would protect QB.

    For those who dont read Malaz he needs literally no preparation for such wards (though prepared wards do feature in the series). Therefor Vins offensive options are substantially limited. QB could just as easily fill the arena with water or unleash Aral Gamelon.

    Whoever put that write up about Vin using otateral,while I enjoyed your write up btw, theres no way that would work. Otateral is not metal and would also nullify the abilities of Vin. Its the absence of energy that Vin would need to use her allomancy so would offset them both. Also the effects of ingesting otateral or leting it touch the skin for mages is madness or incredibly unpredictable results.

    Anyway as this is the internet-QUICK BEN RULEZ!!!!!2011!!!!!!!

  • johthohar

    To clear up some of the confusion on Preservation for people who haven’t read the Mistborn books:


    It’s not exactly a borrowed power. The powers of Preservation and Ruin don’t “belong” to anyone. They simply are. Vin was filling a role as the wielder of Preservation, albeit for a very short period of time. The person who had filled that role for a long time before that had been weakened by the act of imprisoning the person filling the role of the opposite power, Ruin. Then that person dies somehow (can’t remember exactly… been too long since I read the books) and Vin inadvertently steps in. As far as for the purposes of these match-ups…. No… Vin doesn’t get the power of Preservation. Essentially it would make her near omnipotent and impossible for anybody but someone with the power of Ruin to fight. I think the fight would be a lot closer than some other people are saying but, as someone who has read Mistborn and about a third of the Malazan books (so far) I have to give the edge to Quick. He’s just too damn sneaky, the bastard!

  • johthohar

    I just thought of a really funny ending to this fight.

    Quick Ben fills the arena around her for thousands of feet with fire.

    Vin sees the atium shadow of the attack and immediately burns duralium and steel pushing off a coin at breakneck speeds thousands of feet into the air……

    Only to realize that she’s just burned away all her metals and sneaky ass Quick Ben stole her spare vials.

  • Shiara

    Vin crouched, fingering the coppers in the pouch at her waist and waiting for the dark man across the span of bare earth to make the first move.

    The man seemed to blur as he stepped forward – blur and split apart into eight identical figures, spreading out to face her at the other end of the arena.

    Eyes flicking from one to another, Vin tensed and burned steel, casting out an arc of coins and pushing them towards her multiple foes.


    After sending out his illusions Quick stepped back against the wall and nudged open D’riss. Using the warren to slide into the sun warmed stone, he settled in to watch and test his opponent. Though the arena appeared grainy and dull, the girl blazed to his eyes, as did the crowd seated above. After a moment’s hesitation, dark streaks shot from her hand towards his decoys, fast as quarrels, tearing into the figures. Five of them dropped, clutching mortal wounds, and sent out the others to warily flank her, illusory blood dripping from glancing blows.

    Crouching within the stone he inspected one of the pieces of metal that had clinked against the wall nearby. A coin?

    This might be interesting after all…


    Vin didn’t like this – nothing felt right. How could a man split himself like that? The three approaching from ahead and to either side didn’t look at each other, seeming to work together without direction. None were armed that she could see. She burned iron but the only metals she could sense were the faint lines disappearing up into the crowd (jewellery, perhaps?) and the stronger blue lines to her own coins, in her pouch and scattered at the other end of the arena.

    They were getting close now, empty hands rising in unison – mages?

    Vin burned pewter and darted to the left, putting herself between one of them and the wall. She tossed a coin at the wall, hearing it slam against the stone as she leapt at the man, pushing hard to send herself flying feet first to smash into his chest.


    Quick started as the girl moved, frighteningly fast. Before he knew it she had slammed into his illusion, bearing it to the ground and whipping twin obsidian blades across its throat.

    Sliding along the curved wall to bring himself closer, he sent one of his two remaining illusory selves toward her with a snarl, a wave of rippling gold sorcery bursting forth at its gesture.

    The girl dove and rolled, scattering coins from her pouch in a glittering arc as the wave rolled through where she had been moments earlier. The small discs of metal flashed as they passed through the shimmering wall – and emerged untouched to clatter to the gritty arena floor. Barely pausing for breath, she leapt up – and up, higher than he would have thought possible.


    At the zenith of her pewter-enhanced jump, Vin eyed the coins she had scattered deliberately around the feet of the two men. Another wave of light came arcing towards her and she pushed a coin against the wall beside her, sending her out over their heads. In an instant she extinguished her pewter and flared duralumin, pulling with all her strength on a coin beneath each of the men below. They shot towards her, hitting the men in their trajectory and pulling her downward, blades at the ready if the coins hadn’t done enough damage. Duralumin and steel depleted, she burned pewter resist the damage of her accelerated fall, landing in a crouch and spinning in a whirl of silk and blades to slash at the staggering men.

    Vin panted as the last man fell to the ground at her feet. She blinked. There was no blood. None on her blades, none spattered on the wall beside her. She stepped back warily, looking to the others she had downed earlier.

    Hands grabbed her shoulders and she shrieked as she was pulled –


    – back into the stone with him.

    He had seen enough – the girl was strong, but all her powers seemed to rely on those coins. Not enough to defeat him. A wave of energy from behind as she stood over her ‘kills’; a simple gesture opening up the earth beneath her and crushing her within; a small push to open a gate sending her to the depths of Ruse, the pressure killing her before she could drown; all were well within his capabilities. But Quick had had enough of this pointless killing. What had any of them done to deserve this?

    Here in the stone those who had brought them to this couldn’t watch, couldn’t counter as he opened gates to take them back to their own worlds, to continue lives interrupted by this meaningless contest –

    – but before he could speak, she rammed an elbow into his gut and knocked him free of the stone.

    Quick got to his feet slowly. There was no helping her now. His connection to D’riss had allowed him passage through – by breaking his hold on her, she had condemned herself to death, her body forever entombed in the wall of the arena.

    He bowed his head as the crowd roared above him.

  • Shiara

    Co-written with Luci

  • Luci

    Thanks for reminding me, I meant to respond to AHEM’s story too.

    Otataral is actually a metal (mined as a rust coloured ore). Many metals aren’t used by allomancers, because they just make the allomancer sick and bestow no powers. Chances are good this is what otataral would do. In fact even with the alloys they do burn the ratio of metals has to be perfect to not make them ill.
    However, even if it did work and and she got the anti-magic effects, that would in no way affect QBs ability to access the Elder warrens. It would not close them off to him. Even if he’d had his others open (I’ve yet to finish Crippled god, but this is all as I understand it so far).
    Also, she has what, a vial of the stuff? The magic deadening aura would be tiny and would likely only affect any magic cast directly on her (this is assuming “burning” it would spread it throughout her body quickly). He could still stay at a distance and throw elder magic straight at her and use his other magic just not on her (tear up the ground and turn it red hot and then throw it at her for example).

    *small spoiler for a bit of action in Memories of Ice*
    Tiam, we also see QB use this very tactic (using portals as a sheild) against the Pannion outside Coral. Not only does he swallow a wall of sorcery with it, he then opens another one up on the Pannion flank so they get struck by their own wall of sorcery. And he does this to three different walls of sorcery (though he gets two walls with the one gate).

  • Greg

    Luci, Vin’s powers weren’t borrowed as such, and they were permanent. They were only borrowed in the same way the powers she has by burning metals are borrowed.

    Whilst she temporarily drew upon Preservation’s power a couple of times in the books, come the end she did more than that, and essentially became Preservation. As I understand it, when she drew on Preservation’s power before, she was basically embarking upon the process of becoming Preservation, but she stopped almost as soon as she had started, and therefore didn’t go the full way. Also, you have to understand that she was the only person who could draw on these powers, so in essence the powers are more hers than being borrowed.

    However, if you allowed Vin to be Preservation it would be an absolute non contest, so I have little problem with not letting her go the whole way – the problem I was having was with the people who were saying that we haven’t seen Quick Ben’s full powers, so he could be even more powerful! But you aren’t one of those people! 🙂

    Also, is it possible we can have more details about these illusions? It’s just I’m not sure if they are illusions, or actual physical copies at this point. Vin’s heightened senses would be able to tell whether these illusions were ‘breathing’, or gave off a scent, for example, so if they were actual illusions, I’m sure she would have no difficulty in telling which was which. If they were in actual fact copies, then things might be different, however Vin would still be easily clever enough to spot if one of the Quick Ben’s was standing apart and letting the others do the dirty work, and realise that he was the real one.

    (Vin’s tin, incidentally, would also make Quick Ben’s invisibility virtually useless, for her other senses would compensate for her lack of vision, and she’s paranoid enough not to ponder about what these smells and sounds coming from mid air might be, and instead to expect the worst.)

    Also – Vin doesn’t have to use coins to get around – she also has incredible speed, strength and agility with pewter. I think the immediate win people are talking about would go something like this.

    Vin is either on the ground or a mere 20 or so metres in the air when she sees Quick Ben. She uses duralumin with one of the emotion altering metals (to either remove all feeling completely, or make Quick Ben feel nothing but despair, say, to keep him from movement) whilst at the same time sending a coin at breakneck speed between his eyes to kill him using the duralumin and steel. If something goes wrong she still has the preternatural speed (and strength and resilience if she has to fall to ground) of pewter to keep her safe and out of harm long enough to down some more metals.

    It’s certainly not a bad tactic, and it doesn’t actually involve much risk as long as it is done at the start of the battle. It would be far more difficult, granted, if the fight was already under way.

    Also, just a note on the metals which you may not realise. Flaring involves ‘burning’ (using) the metals really quickly to get extra strength for that metal. Each metal burns at different rates, but this might mean you get through twenty minutes worth in closer to two minutes constant use, say. Using duralumin as well as a metal uses all of that metal up at once in one big burst. So if you have enough brass to gently soothe someone’s emotions for six hours, you are using all of that in a moment.

    Put it this way – the only way Vin herself would have a chance of defending against emotional allomancy combined with duralumin is if she was somehow, at the exact same time, both burning duralumin and copper. Obviously I don’t know enough about Mockra to say this for certain, but I doubt that would be protection enough for Quick Ben against duralumin brass or zinc.

    I’m not saying Vin would win, but I think some people are underestimating her.

    It strikes me it’s a contest that might go down to who sees the other first, with Vin having the advantage if they see each other at the same time, but Quick Ben having the advantage if she doesn’t kill him quickly. (Just going by what people say about Quick Ben.)

  • Tiam

    Swallowing sorcery and blasts (I assume were alking about QB afte Blend offers him her stone) is different. Whether he could have used wards to block them is up for debate but small coins are different. Using a warren to swallow a warren blast is fine but using it to swalow a coin when a ward would be just as good seems odd.

    My point was people were talking of Qb fragility and Malaz fans were commenting that he could open a warren to let the coins go in. We forget he could just raise wards and this needs no prep work. The Kamist Reloe example is one were actually objects are simply let in rather than warrens being used in an offensive way. If a volley of arrows came in and someone opened a warren the arrows would go in theoretically. But we never see this we only see this with Reloe whereas we have (SMALL HOC SPOILER) Loric wards blocking a knife from Korbolos henchmen and Tattersail commenting in GOTM when she fights the Hound

  • Vin

    Ima being get mah ass handed ta me! Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!

  • Kanubis

    There are two warrens that can be used for illusions in the Malaz world. Meanas and Mockra. Meanas is the path of shadows and illusion, but maybe you could argue that good enough senses have a chance of seeing through it. . Mockra however would cut through that problem by implanating in Vin’s mind the belief that she could smell and hear and whatever else the illusion needs to make it believable.

    And of course, QB can use them both, which he does to devestating affect a couple of times.

  • Tiam


    Also as for those who have commented we havnt seen QB at full power since the Icarium battle this is pure speculation I assure you. While the mystery surrounding QB are high and have been since day one weve seen a pretty good account of him in the last 2 books (DOD especially). While I think he has more than enough power and flexibility in tactics to easily defeat Vin, though this is far better than either the VIn VS Jon or QB vs Perrin, to simply say we havnt seen QB unleashed is not really up for deabte and should not be included in these fights, as neither maybe should Vins preservation traits.

  • Jeffstu

    Don’t forget that at one time Vin was a god and killed a god.

  • caladanbrood


    So what? In the malazan world, gods aren’t inherantly any more powerful than mortals, it just means they have worshippers – in fact, power is completely irrelevant. You have mortals, like Quick, who would make mincemeat of some of the gods… basically the only difference is that the gods live much (much) longer. If you stab them, they still bleed, if you cut their head off, they still die.

  • Luci

    Ah, well I can only go on what I’ve read in here for the Preserver thing.

    Your scenario assumes she’s had time to be in the air and ready when she sees QB. I prefer the method of they both start in sight of each other. It’s the most fair and this is the grand final.
    Lots of people seem to think that she could fire a coin the instant they see each other. and that QB won’t be ready.
    The only fair method is if they both enter the arena the same way at the same time.
    If they are both teleported in unsuspectingly, she will have to draw a coin before she can fire it. QB has to draw nothing.
    If they both go in aware expect Quick to already have wards and probabvly illusions up.
    The wards of a high mage of QBs stature can stand up to waves of energy that can wipe out entire squads of soldiers without pause. I believe a Mockra ward by him would withstand the duralumin mind attack, though be somewhat strained (and QB is paranoid about his plans, he wouldn’t not have Mockra wards).
    Both cases mean that first shot doesn’t work. Also, if she throws a coin at the same time as he throws a wall of energy, depending on what warrens are in the wall (and as he uses multiple in each wall, so one of the right ones is likely in there) the coin would be destroyed when it hits the wall of energy now between them.

    Even with the speed, he throw wide alls of energy that would not only destroy any coins it runs over, and would be very difficult to dodge without havaing coins to lauch herself over. Even with pewter speed.

    *small Memories of Ice fight, and Deadhouse Gates spoilers*
    The illusions are hard to explain.
    They work because the people believe them real. He doesn’t do it much. Once you realise they’re fake they can’t hurt you, but you do still see them. They blur the line between real and not.
    He summons 8 illusory demon into the middle of an enemy squad. They are so effective they literally shred soldiers to pieces, flinging body parts and gore everywhere before a concerted couter-attack “takes them down” (QB makes the illusions die as though the attacks are affecting them to continue to make it believeable so their death throws kill more of the enemy). Those soldiers ar in melee range and getting murdered and the illusions don’t seem fake (also, this scenario is before he becomes a truly powerful mage).
    In another part, a sqaud mage gets some powerful beings to add energy to what he’s doing and uses an illusion to trick reality…
    *end spoilers*

    So I’d say breathing, scuffing of the ground, smell, all that is covered by them.

    If he is invisible and flying, he is using the warren Serc (air), so smell and breath would possibly go no where, if he even needed to breathe.

    Also, there are other things he can do, like in Shiara’s rite up. If he goes into the arena’s stone wall or into the ground, he can see out, she has no way of perceiving him (he is literally phased into the stone and can essentially fly through it) and even if she guessed where he is, there is not really anything she could do to attack him. While in there he can manipulate stone and earth without needing to leave (and can possibly channel other magic too, but we don’t know).
    And as far as mind attacks go, he can be nearby in a different realm (they kind of lie over each other, but in a weird way, and normally things from one can’t affect things in a different one without going through a gate/portal) and attack her with Mockra 😛 It does say powerful allomancers can pierce the copper effect.

  • wcarter4

    Quick Ben would win this fight, but NO ONE has any right to say that Rand Al’Thor or Vin or any one else is over powered or just protected by Deus Ex Machina compared to this guy. He’s powerful to the point of just being silly.

  • @Kanubis

    If people are going to argue that Mockra can protect QB against Vin’s brass/zinc (lets face it probably brass, she barely uses zinc) then surely Vin’s coppercloud (which she will have on, we all know how paranoid she is!) will protect against Mockra. However:

    Spoiler – Final Empire/Well of Ascension

    Vin can pierce copperclouds, as could the Lord Rular, and so presumably like him she can soothe/riot people’s emotions despite their ‘mind protection’ especially when it is fuelled by durilium as well!

    /spoiler. Spoiler – Hero of Ages

    Vin can control the Koloss without using durilium so she might not even use that.


    As to QB summoning demons surely if he did that then Vin could use (some of) her Koloss, that would keep the demons busy while Vin goes for QB

    She is incrediably fast, to do with pewter, and has enhanced senses, thanks to tin, she could easily avoid things and death just with her quick reactions anyway, nevermind with Atium.

    Poor man’s atium is electrum, which shows yourself in the future, it cancels out atium, but as its a metal only electrum allomancers or Mistborn can use it.

    Also there is another way of defeating atium:

    Spoiler – Well of Ascension

    When Vin is fighting Zane (and kills him) and he has atium and she doesn’t, she watches him to see what she’ll do then changes it at the last moment sticking her dagger in his neck


    However that would only work if QB knows she has atium and what it does. Which I doubt.

    There was something else but I can’t remember…


  • fictionnerd

    Judging by Kanubis says, I think illusions need to be taken off the table. If he uses the shadow one, I believe Vin’s tin will allow her to distinguish between the real and the fake. And if it is going to be maintained that Mockra (that’s the mind one, right?) can block Vin’s emotional allomancy, then it should work in reverse as well. Vin will have her Copper on, and it should protect her mind from manipulation. It is true that powerful allomancers can still effect the emotions of others, despite copper, but the effects are at best, dampened. At worst, Vin keeps her Copper flared and it doesn’t effect her at all. She is insanely powerful as well, and would not be overwhelmed.

    Also, I don’t think Preservation’s powers could really be considered ‘borrowed’. *MISTBORN SPOILER*

    Vin would have continued to have them for longer, if I’m correct, had she not *cough*died*cough*. The powers were hers (as much as any Shard’s power belongs to it’s owner) even if it was only for a short time.

    In any case, even if Vin doesn’t get to be in full Preservation mode, I think she should have a little mist to draw on. That would give her a little extra boost in power and maybe not require her to be so careful when burning duralumin.

    I also want to say to the Malazan fans, that you are very lucky you didn’t have to face off against Jon Snow. The SoIaF fans were complaining all week last week about overpowered, magic users. They would have had a field day with all of QB’s powers. 🙂

    Thanks for all of the educated insight, too, everybody. So far the comments on this match have been much more civil than previously, and it makes the whole experience more pleasant.

  • Serenegoose

    It’s my opinion that the idea that ‘there’s more of Ben that we haven’t seen yet’ is a silly one. I mean fair enough, in the books, maybe that’s the case. But in cage match, fighters should go with powers that they’ve demonstrated they actually have, rather than might conceivably have. Otherwise you could just say ‘well, we’ve never actually seen Quick Ben die, so he probably has a supermegapower that just makes him outright immortal to everything’ which would just be silly.

    Back to the point… as much as I think Mockra may prevent Vin using emotional Allomancy on Ben, I think that copper and tin are going to reveal pretty quickly any illusions Ben himself makes. (copper to eliminate the effects of emotional manipulation, tin to heighten her senses so that she can pick out the flaws in the illusion (lack of heartbeat, etc)). I reject the idea that Ben can use illusions to throw Vin off. His best hope simply comes from being able to do an overwhelmingly powerful trick that Vin has no capacity for dodging, whilst somehow protecting himself from the effects of the same/pre-emptive retribution as well, since there’s very little ambiguity about Vins ability to survive nuclear fire/your elemental equivalent of choice whereas there’s plenty of evidence to suggest she won’t be tricked by an illusion.

  • Tsiar

    The point of Malazan series is that they’re filled with overpowered characters, so, relatively, none of them is really overpowered – but if you compare them to heroes from any other series… well, then they don’t stand much of a chance.
    Of course, even in Malazan universe QB is very powerful, but what makes him exceptionally dangerous is his intelligence rather than raw power: he manipulates others to do, what he wants them to.
    My point is, that I could find easily two characters who are definitely more powerful than QB in Malazan universe (Rake and Irenicus) and few others who are most likely more powerful (e.g. Shadowthrone, Mael, Draconus) – still, if he had the opportunity to start an intrigue, all these people might end up doing exactly what he planned for them; actually, the whole Malazan series could be possibly viewed as a huge Quick Ben’s intrigue (even though many would disagree, Kalam in first place 😀 ).
    And pardon my English, it’s not my native language 😉

  • johthohar

    You know who is even craftier than Quick Ben (in his own way) and is possibly my favorite character in the entire series so far (about a quarter through book 4) and I think should be considered for next year’s cage match? Why the lowly but worthy, ever capable and formidable Kruppe of course!

  • caladanbrood

    I agree with Serenegoose. And ever without hypothetical stuff we think he could do but haven’t actually seen, and assuming his illusions are neutralised, Quick would still win this battle.

    *Reaper’s Gale and beyond spoilers* He took down three fully-powered ascendant dragons. Ancient dragons, at that, and the Crippled God shows the awesome power of ancients quite effectively.

    Quick’s preferred method of fighting is sneaky, self-preserving and quite often flat-out cheating. But he’s proved on a number of occasions that he has enough power at his beck and call to win a stand-up knock-down power battle.

  • Nefarias Bredd


    Aye! I would love to see Kruppe in the Cage Match. Donkey CHAAAAAAAAARGE!!

  • Misteater

    I think the challenge for this match is defining where in the series you want to pull the characters from. Vin starts with no powers and ends with god powers. Ben starts as a high level mage and develops (or is revealed) to be god-like post icarium. This is how I see the breakdown:

    Basic metals/coins Vin vs 12 Warrens Ben : Ben wins easily
    Dura/atium Vin vs 12 Warrens Ben: Close match, comes down to speed – Vin
    Dura/atium Vin vs 12 Warrens + Summoning Ben: Ben wins
    Dura/atium Vin vs 12 Warrens + Holds Ben: Ben wins easily
    Mists Vin vs 12 Warrens + Holds Ben: Vin wins

  • Brian

    If Vin burned brass and duralium at the start of the fight she could shatter his emotions, leaving his mind completely for a moment and fire a coin into his skull before he recovered from the shock. That’s probably her best chance, except if she had the mists. I could see Vin winning so I voted for her.

  • @Serengoose – Technically, we do know for sure that when Quick Ben dies, he will become a god automatically. So that bit is not just presumed. 😀

  • breadedwit

    OK, I love the character Vin and Brandon Sanderson’s Magic system as much as anyone but we can tell that Vin is not in the mist and that she is not in her “Preservation Mod”. Ben although not over powered in his own books is overpowered in the mistborn world and that, and the fact that he was created by a different author, is why he isn’t a character in it. Mistborn magic is too limited by physics to be successful in Ben’s world. She is awesome but she can’t win. If you knew anything about QB you would know that Ben wouldn’t have near as hard a time beating the Lord Ruler as Vin did. The write up for Vin up above is pretty crappy but she still wouldn’t win. Just two completely different worlds. I apologize to my fellow Mistborn fans. I honestly don’t like QB’s books that much but I am logical and understand it’s a lost cause if it came to a real fight.

  • johthohar


  • Serenegoose

    Terez: Then I hope for Vins sake that the fight’s considered to have stopped the moment ones brain functions cease. Honestly? The old ‘strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine’ trick? For shame. 😛

    That said, I would love to see a humourous writeup of cagematch rules in the future.

    1: No becoming God. It’s unsporting, even if you can do it.
    2: Any and all Mice entering the tourney must have their physical size hotly contested, (Redwalls law) unless any allusion to mousery is purely symbolic (The Muad’dib exception.)
    3: Names are -not- killing words.
    4: Not even a man with the top half of a torso in his show-off picture has the heart to kill Pug. Don’t even try it.
    5: Precognition is considered a minor power.

    etc etc. 🙂

  • Bauchelain

    To all those saying that atium would give Vin the upper edge.

    This reminds me of a marvel character who thought himself umbeatable because he could anticipate every move his opponents would make. That’s until he met Quicksilver and discovered that prescience is useless if your fighting a guy who moves faster than the blink of an eye.

    The point is this. What would happen if QB decides to turn the air in Vin’s lungs to fire? What matters if she knows he’s going to do that? It’s not as she can actually dodge something like that.

  • Serenegoose

    Bauchelain: The way I see it is – Vin has Atium, and Ben has these moves that I accept she can’t dodge. The question is not then whether or not Ben can easily kill Vin. That’s indisputable. It’s whether Atium gives Vin enough time to 1: See the attack coming, and 2: Kill Ben before he can perform the attack, preventing it from ever happening. If Ben goes to (analogy time!) fire his BFG of doom, it does him little good if he’s dead before he’s got his finger to the trigger. Atium, (to see his action before it occurs), pewter (to give her the supernatural speed and grace to aim the coin directly at his head), steel (to push the coin at bulletlike or above speeds) and Duralumin (to boost her power even further), give Vin, I feel, the ability to do just that. Flare them all at once, and I believe she is the fastest character in this tournament by some way.

    Ben is massively powerful, but Vin Shoots First. YMMV obviously, because to pretend I’m not biased would be silly.

  • Tialin

    Wow. Some really good and insightful comments and analysis on this thread! I appreciate that and also that people are sticking to the characters strengths and weaknesses rather than making this just another popularity contest. Which is also is, sadly. It will be a close fight, and I can’t decide who would win.

    So having carefully weighed the skills and god-like powers of these two fearsome fighters, I am reduced to voting for the lesser of two abysmally lame names.

    Quick Ben? REALLY? wow Sounds like a corruption of the brand of some really dreadful convenience food rice I had in some utterly forgettable reality or other. Vin? You mean like in Vehicle Identification Number? Huh? C’mon.

    Looks like all the brain power went into creating the magic systems in these books, with none left over for character names.

    Vin wins for at least being less laughable.

  • Tialin

    @wcarter4 Totally agree.
    Quick Ben is overpowered to the point of absurdity. Vin is not far behind. Robert Jordan at least understood the dangers of letting any one character or group of characters grow too powerful. Even the most powerful and skilled have issues, limitations and restrictions, and that makes them believable, even if they are super-heroes or powerful magic-wielders or whatever, as they have to work to resolve conflicts. They don’t just level up automatically through time and usage like video game characters, they have to learn and grow. That makes them interesting and relate-able. So they all ascend to godhood and then what – same problem in the next dimension? Whatever…who could care?

  • Je-Nes-Pas-Ecrire-Le-Fantastique

    Terry Goodkind writes WAY better fantasy than either of these two authors! He writes real fantasy and makes his characters real. Richard and Kalahn are the best couple and could take out any of these contenders. His series is the best!!

  • Taled Nohpeda Neb

    I read the Malazan books back a few years ago and found them complex, and read Mistborn more recently.

    I think Quick Ben might be the better competitor here. Simply because even if Vin burned Atium…wouldn’t she see like all of QB’s souls moving about?

  • Serenegoose

    He writes real fantasy, does he? Fascinating. To think of all the time I’ve wasted reading all of this fake fantasy drivel, when I could have been reading about fantasy that -actually happened-!

  • johthohar


    Really? RJ’s characters aren’t overpowered? Lol. Vin isn’t overpowered at all IMO. She’s just insanely talented and inovative with the powers she possesses. Quick Ben you could make a case for being absurdly overpowered I suppose. I’m not far enough into the series to make a judgement on that. But seriously. Rand is destined to face off one-on-one with an evil deity and presumably win. He can destroy the world in the blink of an eye. Whipe out entire hundreds of thousands strong armies by himself….. But, nah…. He’s not overpowered at all! Lol.

  • johthohar

    @Je-Nes….. something

    SoT is decent through the first few books…. Later on it just gets horrible. Richard becomes some kind of infallible super wizard who can do no wrong. And the whole Richard and Kalahn drama is too Twilight-esque for me. “Oh, we finally found a way to be together. WAIT! One more insurmountable obstacle to this oh so tragic love story! What ever will we do!?” I stopped reading after the book that was all about his sister whatever-her-name-was. At that point Zed was the only enjoyable character in the books. And even he was getting a bit annoying. It’s all feels far too contrived.

  • @Je-Nes-whatever is probably a bored Malazan fan. Pretending to be Tairy fans….it’s a forum pastime.

  • Crump

    Cluck Cluck.

    Quick Ben is not overpowered he’s over-awesome. That is all the critical argument I have for now.

  • johthohar

    Ahh… bit of a strange pastime lol. Has anyone else noticed that the captcha’s on this site are insanely hard to read!?

  • AHEM

    “Quick Ben? REALLY? wow Sounds like a corruption of the brand of some really dreadful convenience food rice I had in some utterly forgettable reality or other. Vin? You mean like in Vehicle Identification Number? Huh? C’mon.”

    That just gave me a positively hilarious mental image.

    Vin walks into a fast food joint.

    Quick Ben: Welcome to Quick Ben’s! The finest food from my homeland of exotic Malaz, with a dash of magic in every dish! We’re having a specialty on rich today.

    Vin: No, I’m just here about my car. It’s the black and silver one parked outside, with the license plate number, “BDASS-ACT-GRL” It seems I’ve lost my vehicle identification number.

    Quick Ben: Ah, yes, that. You see, I need something to get around Malaz faster, what with all the trouble there lately, so I’m going to have to take your car.

    Vin: But I need that! It has my lucky steel coins and the stuffed koloss figure and everything!

    Quick Ben: Ah, I see we’re not going to agree, are we? Well, it looks like we’ll have to settle this in a dual to the death.

    Quick as his name, Ben Adaephon Delat opened forth the Warren of Salsa, and Vin only barely dodged in time before everything where she had stood was instantly cooked in a spicy saurce. She threw a coin to the far wall, and Pulled with duralumin and iron on something outside.

    Vin’s car crashed through the building, breaking through the tables and chairs and crashing past the counter, where it flattened Quick Ben.

    Vin: Darn it, this isn’t going to be covered by my insurance!

  • vinlvr

    hahahahaha, I just voted 15x for Vin! Rock! There is a FB for Mistborn fans telling you how…..Go Penny pincher go!

  • @johthohar – I supposed you’d have to be a Malazite to understand. But basically, Goodkind is a running joke at most fantasy forums, no matter which authors they are dedicated to. Malazan has had some particularly trollish-seeming Tairy fans in the past, which were suspected to be fake Tairy fans. But nevertheless these trolls started some memorable flamewars.

    And yes, I noticed the captchas are very hard to read – but I also noticed I’ve never had one rejected. I think they allow for one or two errors.

  • lil’ Coco

    @Vinlvr – Wow! Sure! Go ahead and promote cheating on the thread for the actual match. That’s not tactless at all.

  • @Coco – It’s hard to fault the honesty there.

  • Kolo Navi

    I just voted for Quick Ben once! There is thread on Facebook where fans says you how to do it! I can show you! Just click small circle beside the name…and…

  • Sechul Lath

    wow. discovered the cage matches earlier in the series so got to experience the whole set of fanatic fans and the multi vote system that some people resort to… Have to say this is a much better discussion than the Perrin/Quick one (brawl??)
    As for the earlier comments about potential and increasing power re QB, thats kinda blown out the water in the Crippled God, given it’s implied that a story arc that begins in Memories of Ice and effectively defines the last few books of the series is all Quick’s “game” taking a whole host of ascendants (Shadowthrone, Hood, Anomander Rake etc) for a ride, so he’d probably have manipulated it all before he got into the fight in the first place.
    /END spoiler
    In the end however (and having read both series, admittedly MBOTF a bit more recently) Quick is just waaaay more versatile and even with Atium, the massive number of ways that he could kill Vin is just too telling, the aforementioned turning the air around her for 500 metres into a fireball and dropping her into a very deep hole (with or without a cusser to follow) but also things like just filling her lungs with water so she drowns (as a character does fairly early on in the series – sorry can’t remember which book) would seem to be the suitably underhanded, sneaky way of doing things that would appeal. Also the advantage of that is that as far as I can recall Atium doesn’t let Vin see inside her body so she couldn’t really dodge herself drowning…
    Apart from all that, I’ve really enjoyed reading the cage matches even if the write ups have been a little bit out of character at time!!!

  • In order for atium to really help Vin, she has to 1) understand what she’s seeing, and 2) have some way to counter it. For most of what QB would do, the first is very unlikely. From what I remember, she sees images of whoever she’s facing and their physical movements, but that’s all. Helpful for traditional fighting but not so much for magical attacks that are mostly carried out mentally.

  • Je-Nes-Pas-Ecrire-Les Fantastique

    @Terez – You might be onto something…those people who speak french might have figured me out earlier…


    Quick Ben should win.

  • Shadow Mule shall rule the world…

    ‘Scrawny whelp vs snake of a wizard… bah… a waste… that slip of a girl has no chance… now only if they I can get them to work for me… ahhh… just think… yeeesssss…’
    The mule meant business… his ears twitched…
    And everything stopped…The fight, the crowd… the air itself..!
    ‘Yesssss indeed… now you are mine..!’


  • Kettle

    Is it just me, or does vinlvr sound like a dodgy internet ad? “I lost 50lbs in twenty seconds! Come to my website and see how!”

    IT’S A TRAP!

  • Valas

    kruppe will win this battle.

    riding his donkey of course!

  • ZetaStriker

    I have to vote Quick Ben myself, but it took a lot of deliberation. With Atium, I’d expect Vin to win with a single coinshot . . . but I see her wasting time jumping around on coins and feeling Quick out before resorting to that. Atium is ALWAYS a last resort for her, and not once did she use it off the bat. As such, Quick would just use a wide-scale attack she can’t avoid and it’d be done.

    Another question I have is whether Atium would even be useful if she DID use it. I only ever remember it revealing physical movements, usually in relatively close combat. How would an atium shadow of the ground falling out beneath her? Would it be obvious enough for her to recognize the threat? If it was something more subtle, like illusion, would it read the illusion’s movement’s too, causing much more confusion?

  • Serenegoose

    ZetaStriker: It’s important to remember that a key aspect of atium use is that it grants the user the ability to deal with the confusion all the shadows of possibility give. It takes an extraordinary amount of effort to overwhelm this ability, (like say, a maddened, furious mistborn hurling around so many coins simultaneously that it’s more akin to a cloud of metal) so Vin is probably safe from it. You’re right that Vin is cautious and defensive, but that’s because that style works in her world, and Atium is so rare and hard to come by. She doesn’t hesitate to burn it when she feels she has a genuine need. If she’s dumped into the fight against Quick Ben ignorant, then yeah, she’s probably toast – but we seem to be assuming that Quick Ben gets to keep his batman levels of preparedness and will know of Vin – well Vin is a paranoid street urchin who is also compulsively prepared, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say she’ll have a good guess at his capacities. Vin is a survivor, she’s not going to take any chances against anybody who could frag the Lord Ruler with a thought. I definitely agree that the weak point of Atium is that it’s not going to be much use at signaling an attack that directly affects her. Amusingly, the fact that she has Atium will probably mean she doesn’t burn Electrum, (the metal which shows her own future) which would certainly clue her in to any attacks that affect her directly without any motion or flashiness on Quick Bens part.

  • Grizz

    Quick Ben FTW!!! No little chica is taking down the nastiest wizard in the entire Malazan host, that’s for damn sure.

    I did LOL HARD at “Say one thing for Logen Ninefingers, say he’s been beat by a little girl.”

  • AHEM


    There’s actually a pretty good reason for Vin to burn both atium and electrum at the same time. Electrum makes her immune to atium, so if she faced another Mistborn with only atium (or a Seer, who only have atium) and she burned atium and electrum, she would be immune to their sight and also allow her to put the drop on them with her own atium.

  • Viridian


    Atium enhances the mistborn’s mental faculties to allow them to fully comprehend and react to what they are seeing. She could see into the future and most likely, the atium would allow for her to understand whatever Quick Ben was planning.

  • @Viridian – If that’s so, then why did she have such a hard time understanding what she was seeing when they first tested atium? She thought it was worthless, from what I remember.

    If anyone could direct me to a passage which clarifies this ‘understanding’ thing, though, I’d be appreciative. I have the books on hand.

  • Viridian

    You may be thinking of electrum, gold or Kelsier’s notorious ‘eleventh’ metal which was all but worthless :P. Atium’s effect is immediately noticeable

  • TrypB

    It is not so much that Goodkind’s characters are flat altruistic and annoying, its that he is still fighting the cold war…. only badly. I like freedom, as an ideal and in markets even but trying to read his later books makes me feel less sure of my convictions when placed in such a venal light. All citizens are free…. so long as you do exactly what Richard tells you to do at a moments notice. He reserves the right to kill any and all people if they pose a slight inconvenience. And no one making money has ever done a wrong doing, or harmed another for their own profit… But all civil servants are vampires… Unless they are Richards torturers…. Those are awesome because they remove freedoms of others for his benefit… This is the later series fall out…. But yeah Gratch was kinda cool…

    Back to the issue at hand, Quick Ben is not over powered where he comes from, There is always some elder race, or elder god, or shape shifters clogging the warrens, or an inconvenient ice age that puts a wizard in check. And dying and coming back more powerful is actually a cliche in the malazan stuff, they poke the fourth wall about it some. Still burning metal sounds cool, I’m just glad Quick Ben didn’t lose to Snape… I mean a children’s book character of all things… his bracket should have the little engine that could, and the mother bunny from good night moon.

  • AHEM

    “If anyone could direct me to a passage which clarifies this ‘understanding’ thing, though, I’d be appreciative. I have the books on hand.”

    Mistborn, the Final Empire, Part II “Rebels Beneath a Sky of Ash”, chapter 13, page 242.

    Kelsier: “Whiile you’re burning atium, nothing can surprise you. You can swing a dagger, knowing confidently that your enemies will run right into it. You can dodge attacks with ease because you’ll be able to see where every blow will fall. Atium makes you quite nearly invincible. It enhances your mind, allowing you to make use of all the new information.”

    When Vin first tested atium, after receiving a brief overview of its functions from Kelsier, he swung at her, and she was able to anticipate and catch his blow with no prior training. Afterwards, she thought that burning something so valuable for power was a waste. She only couldn’t make sense of the information when Kelsier in turn burned atium himself, which equalized it out: When two Mistborn burn atium, their ability to anticipate each other’s moves cancels out their abilities, because the future is constantly changing.

    I believe that Vin had difficulty figuring out the eleventh metal, melatium, and possibly electrum, but not atium. She picked on that quite quickly.

  • Viridian

    You may even have been thinking of duralumin. It took Vin awhile to figure out that duralumin did since you had to actually be burning other metals for it to do anything.

  • @Viridiam @AHEM Thanks for refreshing my memory. 😀 I am known for having a really good memory, but that’s only because I’ve read WoT at least a dozen times and I discuss it on a daily basis. In reality my memory sucks (and I’ve only read Mistborn once, and not since the 3rd book came out).

    Judging based on that passage alone, it looks like Kelsier’s words could be taken to explain the logistics of traditional combat only. Because in reality, images of these things would not be incredibly helpful because the average human brain isn’t quick enough to keep up with it. But I’m wondering if there is something to show that it would work for magic that is not dependent on something like hand-waving (which Vin could theoretically recognize with her eyes and prevent).

  • Brandon Erikson

    This is a tough one. I’m conflicted. Abstain.

  • bob

    Sadly for Vin Atium does not show when people will burn copper or tin or zinc or even atium so it would only show outside world physical effects. HOWEVER this chart: shows what some of her metals are capable of. As of the end of the books she has not come across several of them but if she were using preservation she could gain their effects. Also some alloys of Atium (Maybe Atium with electrum?) could probably show what a person was THINKING about doing, or it might have the ability to show the other person what Vin was going to do… some of the God metal alloys have unknown uses. None of this info could really help give Vin an incredible edge except to say that if Vin was using all of her known metals she was have a lot more than just coins to work with.

    Let’s also not forget that she does has a couple rather large armies or monsters up her sleeve using copper, or was it zinc…?

  • AHEM


    Duralumin and either brass or zinc, at the same time.

    @Brandon Erikson

    If you can’t make up your mind, maybe you could ask your friend Steven Sanderson for advice. Hopefully he’ll be less conflicted.

  • Grizz

    “@Brandon Erikson

    If you can’t make up your mind, maybe you could ask your friend Steven Sanderson for advice. Hopefully he’ll be less conflicted.”

    Heh – took me a minute to get that one. Nice.

  • Grizz

    “@Brandon Erikson

    If you can’t make up your mind, maybe you could ask your friend Steven Sanderson for advice. Hopefully he’ll be less conflicted.”

    Heh – took me a minute to get that one. NICE.

  • Bob Jones

    This writeup sells Vin’s abilities short. She can burn sixteen (in theory) different metals, but only uses six of them (iron (pulls against metals), steel (pushes against metals), tin (enhances senses), pewter (enhances strength,toughness, and reflexes), atium (gives visions of the future and understanding of them), and duralumin (boosts any other ability greatly for a moment)). Admittedly, some of the others are pretty much useless, but others would help to counter a few of Quick Ben’s tricks, as well as giving her a few more. Copper has the ability to shield her mind, at least somewhat, from illusions placed into it. Bronze would tell her where Quick Ben was, assuming that he was using magic at the time, although she probably couldn’t tell any more than that. Brass and Zinc could also be useful, as dampening and heightening emotions in Quick Ben could (probably) help as well. Malatium could…let her see that he has 12 souls? Gold, Aluminum and Electrum are pretty much useless, and she doesn’t know about the other two. Overall, she should have had a much stronger showing, although probably not enough to overcome Quick Ben (from power estimates from the comments).

  • Radmer


    hahahahahaha, that’s a good joke, Terry Goodkind, don’t get me wrong I read al his books and I like them. Can’t wait for the new one but you obviously didn’t read both series otherwise you wouldn’t make such a comment.

  • prithvi

    I read somewhere above that Terry Goodkind writes good fantasy and is better than Erikson, I beg differ wholeheartedly. Terry Goodkind is what happens when Ayn Rand meets a train wreck and I am just being the good kind here. I got so tired of reading his unending prattle about objectivism that I stopped reading after the fifth book.

    He did have his moments in the first few books (especially the Wizard’s first rule) but all that was swept away in his rambling monologues delivered with all the grace of a haranguing evangalist. If I want to read Ayn Rand, I’ll read Ayn Rand, not Terry Goodkind nattering second hand in fantasy.

    Erikson’s style is raw and his fantasy explores a completely different world as compared to your run of the mill fan fi with fairies (Where are you Paolini?) and ogres. There are imperfect characters residing in shades gray that are all too human and there is history that does back not simply go back centuries or milleniums, but eons! Though I am slightly disappointed by the crippled god, Erikson is perhaps the best fantasy fiction writer around solely on the basis of his Malazan series.

    PS- While I know taste is subjective but you can dislike Goodkind as an objective exception

  • ThinkingMalaz

    Great final match… and I’m enjoying the discussion on here…

    I voted Quick Ben but I really like Vin and I am intrigued by the whole mistborn/metal thing. The Cage match series has made me decide that I want to read the Mistborn Series now, so that is a positive.

    For those of you calling Quick Ben overpowered… Well he might seem to be overpowered here but in the Malazan world he certainly isn’t. He’s tough cookie there but there ia a plethora of Gods, Ascendants and Elder Gods and other Mages that are no doubt more powerful then he is, High Mage Tayschrenn is a good example. The thing that makes quick ben special is not that he is a major mojo slinger, it’s that he he is fiendishly smart. He has some very awesome magical standoffs in the malazan series but those are not the most impressive things in the series he does imo. It’s the fact that he manipulates, cajoles and tricks a whole host of more powerful beings into acting according to Quick Ben’s plan (whether they know it or not) This aspect got a bit snowed under in these Cagematches, but it’s what makes him so Awesome in the eyes of many malazan fans (like me) and which is why we have all been saying he should win it hands down. Hopefully this cagematch will get more of you to read the awesomeness that is the Malazan book of the Fallen.

    The Cagematches certainly have caused me to get some books of series that I didn’t know before this whole thing started

  • dexterstjock

    It’s been a fair while since I’ve read Mistborn, but I do have respect for Vin’s abilities. She has the wherewithal and smarts to deal with a variety of defences and offences and can seriously lay down the hurt when she wants to.

    However, the amount of metal she has to burn will be finite. Like I said, it’s been a while, but I doubt she has all that much atium or duralumin (sp.?) to burn – a minute or two tops? – so Vin has to kill Quick very quickly, as he is more able to outlast her than vice versa. Vin MAY be able to dodge or avoid every attack thrown at her while burning atium, but she also has to be able to hit Quick, which is anything but certain. The man can disappear at will and reappear elsewhere in seconds (and we have other evidence of people doing it to great effect SPOILERS such as Iskaral Pust, Topper and Cowl, to name a fewSPOILERS), and you cannot say definitively that Vin is faster than Quick (or vice versa). Quick clearly has his limits too – he can’t fling around magic all day (and we’ve seen what happens when he reaches that point), but Vin’s endurance is somewhat limited by the fact that she has to constantly keep burning metals where Quick doesn’t have to expending his ‘power source’ (for lack of a better word) the whole time.

    Plus if we look at the feats of magic people have been able to achieve in the MBotF, some of them seem fairly unavoidable no matter who you are – I doubt pewter or copper or zinc or even atium whatever could prevent him boiling her brain in her head, filling her lungs with sand or setting the air around her on fire, all feats we’ve seen achieved and that he could pull off within seconds. Vin’s speed is also based on the fact that she can fling herself through the air like Spiderman – it’s probably not a great idea to be sailing through the air against a master of the Serc warren, practitioners of which can control the wind and bring down tornadoes.

    Hell, Quick doesn’t even have to fight at all – unless you place a constraint on Quick’s ability to use his warrens, he can leave the arena at will, into places Vin cannot follow.

    As for Quick being absurdly powerful, perhaps he is compared to characters in other series, but then he’s one amongst a great many in the Malazan series, so his power is less of a game-changer than you would think, even more so by the fact that he’s notorious for flying below the radar.

  • gR

    Hmm, did the number of Vin’s votes just go _down_ by a hundred or so?? What’s going on?

  • Thallis

    I don’t think so….I’ve been checking every now and then to see how the votings is going….i haven’t seen Vin reach 300…she’s been slowly getting through the 200’s.

  • Luci

    You seem to think that if it’s a spell that she wouldn’t be able to see coming it will take him more than an instant.
    This is not true. When he removes the ground from beneath an ancient powerful warrior it is within the blink of an eye. There is no movement from quick, there is no time to react or telltale noise. The guy does not even realise what has happened till he’s hit the ground (and just to clarify, compared to a normal human, the ancient warrior is fast enough that it’s barely possible to follow his attacks in a fight).
    So atium would show her literally nothing (no movement on his part) and unless she was looking at her feet she wouldn’t see a warning shadow of a hole (could you see a shadow of a hole where there is ground? does atium show the effects on the surroundings? ie – would it show a shadow of a wall falling if she couldn’t see the source of the damage?) and then she would be falling. That example ins’t deadly on it’s own, but you get the point

    Bob Jones:
    The illusions are not from the mind warren, they are seen by anyone who can see the spot, so copper wouldn’t help with them (more akin to really good holograms)
    I very much get the impression that Bronze only works on showing allomancy, not any magic. Does it show someone using the powers of Ruin or Preservation? If not, I’d say that it’s literally the burning of the metal it shows.

    To those who don’t think the illsuions would work or are based in part on Mockra:
    I imagine Mockra would help, but it doesn’t seem necessary. The scene where his illusions murder soldiers, that is told from the point of view of an ally, and she also doesn’t know they’re illusions. He would not be using Mockra on her.
    And the mage who trick reality, can not use Mockra, and he TRICKS REALITY with illusion.
    Quick was good enough to summon eight illusory demons with the ability to really murder, before he became more powerful. Now that he is more, I doubt tin would be enough to tell the difference. And if it was, I think it would only be enough if Quick was also there to compare it to. If he’s not there, she may pick up that something is a little off, but especially in a tournament where she’s encountered so many other “off” things, I doubt she’d think they were illusions.
    If you really insist she could tell the difference, I still say she couldn’t without at least a second look/sec to have a good look, which means they could still be reliable destractions.

    I am still curious if anyone has a response she could possibly make if QB did something like hide within the arena wall or floor.

  • Annabel

    I haven’t read Mistborn but I’m reading up on what Vin can do before I vote. That chart of the metals bob posted is very interesting.

    The only way I can see Vin being especially effective is if she can use Cadmium. If she can, then slowing down time is a very effective way for her to counter a lot of QB’s typical attacks – if he makes a giant hole under her it gives her the time to push out of it before Quick gets over there with a burner. If he ignites the air around her or fills her lungs with water, if she’s slowed down time then she can Push/Pull the water out of her lungs before she runs out of air or Push the flaming air away before it gets too hot. Cadmium could definitely be an equalizer here, but no one has spoken about it so can she use it?

    It’s too bad Electum is limited to a few seconds. If it weren’t she could have used it before the match and been very well prepared with a knowledge of how Quick attacks.

  • bob

    It REALLY depends on if he has ANY metal on him or not, or if he has been eating a lot of Iron…. She has been known to pull out metal from INSIDE of peoples bodies when she has enough Iron and/or steel. She could follow that he has gone into the ground and she could even pull the iron out of him into the ground provided that she has enough metal to do it. Even a tiny amount of Preservation would give her a huge advantage.

  • Troubadour

    (Mistborn spoilers ahead!)

    @Annabel: She can use all the metals, but nobody was aware that cadmium had Allomantic properties before her death in-universe. Since these fights are intentionally OUT-of-universe for everyone, you might get away with giving it to her, but I don’t know if she’d figure out what it does quickly enough.

    Or, well, maybe she would. She IS Vin.

  • ObscureTairyFan

    I am flattered by all you other late comers who feel your devotion to Lord Tairy can in any way compare to mine. I am the original devotee to the mysteries of Rahl-ity and I will not be undermined.

    I still don’t know who quick Ben or Vin is (unless its the guy from Riddick) but I think the write-up above is very realistic. Who fights with coins? C’mon thats not even possible, I would have cast a chain-lightning on the whole arena and watched them all squirm.

  • ObscureTairyFan

    And to Terez, after all the gender debates, you still pretend to understand the motivations of genuine literary heroes and stalwart followers and would paint the few honest enough to publicly admit their devotion to Tairy with the brush of spite and malignant tomfoolery. For shame! You should go home, shave your knuckles, and wait for the end of the world.

  • vinlvr

    “it’s not whether you win by an inch or a mile, winning’s winning”

    Vinfanarmy, voting party tonight at 8p ET! Lets rock it!

  • @ObscureTairyFan – The end of the world? Now you smell like a Christian. You know that’s just as bad, don’t you? I swear, Tairy fans these days just don’t know their roots.

  • Vice

    Hmm…I’ve read all 10 of Erikson’s Malazan books, as well as Esslemont’s first two, and Quick Ben was by far one of my favorite characters. While I enjoyed the write-up, I can’t recall a single instance in any of the books where Quick Ben either flew/levitated or raised the dead. I’m not saying he can’t, since he seemed to have no end to tricks up his sleeves in the novels, and likely possessed powers beyond that which was already shown. Still, found it curious.

    Someone can feel free to correct me if I’m misremembering this.

  • Matt

    From watching the voting patterns, it seems like polldaddy has fixed the repeat voting tricks. I tried the one way I knew of (abusing private browsing) and got nothing. Now if only suvudu would reset the final matches since I’m pretty sure there was cheating going on from both sides earlier.

  • dead troll

    Vin can use atium. She does not have an unlimited store of atium and once she begun burning it she would press the attack knowing that Quik Ben could not burn atium. Knowing what he will do before he does it she would more than likely win. Quik Ben’s only hope would be to totally overwhelm and surprise her with something she has never seen before, or to gleam some hint of the future by playing close attention to what Vin was doing and acting accordingly. The author of the write up talks of vin burning atium, but scarcely a hint of what would happen when she burned atium. I am not sure what the darkness of rashan is, or if that could counteract the effects of atium. If so, it might go badly for Vin.

  • Bob Jones

    @ Luci

    Haven’t read any of the Malazan books, point conceded on Copper, but as for Bronze, I had the impression that it detected any magic that created more energy in the world, which is why it could detect Allomancy (and the Well of Ascension), but not the other two magic systems in Mistborn. Depending on the mechanics in play, I think that it could still work, and if it did, could help differentiate the murdering illusions from Quick Ben (as they aren’t using magic). Also, Tin has slight magic effect as well, beyond simply enhancing senses, allowing you to see through the mists more clearly (and presumably other energy-creating magic as well), although Vin is not accustomed/trained enough in this for it to have much effect.

    @ Annabel

    Steel and Iron are much more limited than you seem to think. They can only push and pull against metal, and only directly towards/away from you (no torque, no floating something sideways in front of you etc…) and the opposite force is applied to your body (letting you fly by pushing down, moving forwards by pulling something big etc…)

    More general thoughts, I don’t see a hole appearing under Vin posing any danger, unless it was a bottomless pit, as she could react fast enough with Pewter and Steel to escape a normal fall easily.

    One way to tip the scales in her favor would be if Quick Ben carried at least some metal, even as small as a button. He probably would if he wasn’t forewarned (and, depending on the setup of the cage match, he wouldn’t be). Another way would be if Vin burned Duralumin and Atium at the start of the battle or just before, she would gain god-like understanding of the situation (as understanding the future is one part of Atium). Probably still not enough to beat Quick Ben, but it would be an awesome fight.

    PS: If Bronze worked, she could counter Quick Ben hiding in a wall etc. by throwing something heavy at him, smashing the wall. Another way, if he had metal on him, to push/pull that into him. Not very effective, but it’s something.

  • I still haven’t seen any evidence that atium will give her god-like understanding, or anything close to it. It just enhances her mind so that she can process the images of her opponents future movements, which would normally be impossible. But if her opponent does something which 1) requires no physical movements, and 2) can’t be countered anyway, I don’t see how atium would help her.

  • ObscureTairyFan


    I believe that many religions offer a theme for the end of the world. And don’t get me started defending all my right-wing constituents, who may in fact have copies of all 47 volumes of Goodking’s magnum opus on the same bookshelves as their guns and various holy paraphenalia

  • @ObscureTairyFan – This Goodkind character should take personal responsibility for their confusion, don’t you think?

  • Toblakai

    @Vice: He can fly, using the warren of Serc. I can’t remember exact details and am probably misremembering a bit, but there was a point when he and Kalam were exploring a warren that had a floating skykeep (I believe) in it. Anyway, he used Serc to fly/float up to it. I believe there were a few other instances of it being mentioned or demonstrated as well.

  • Wanderer

    Personally, I have not read either series (though now I plan too ASAP). After reading the comments, however, I think Vin would lose this match. The amount of powers and abilities Quick Ben has really pretty much slams anything Vin has. Both are powerful and both are resourceful etc etc etc. But really the malazan side has it right this time. Even an uber strong OMG one-hit-kill maneuver with added psychic foresight from Vin won’t work if Quick simply isn’t there to take the hit. And how does one dodge an attack that begins from WITHIN ones body? That spreads at the speed of thought? From an attacker that is not physically within reach? Sorry mistborn but your character is ill-equipped to win this one. My vote goes to Quick Ben.

  • Andrew_Gelos


    In the Mistborn series allomancers (Vin being most prominent in the series) metabolize metals in order to gain supernatural abilities. By metabolizing iron and steel, an allomancer can push or pull on metal objects. Because the weight of the object being manipulated and the weight of the allomancer are called into account, most Mistborn and Coinshots prefer to use small, lightweight coins like bullets, pushing them at high velocities using their powers. At this point in time on that world, the bullet hadn’t been invented yet, so coins functioned just as well as any small bit of metal, and because almost everyone carries currency on them it makes for cheap and plentiful ammunition.

    I hope this post gets up before any flamers decide to respond.

    Have a good day.

    Suravye ninto manshima taishite.

  • bob

    spoilers!!!!! if you burn atium and duralumin at the same time it allows you to see and comprehend the future for quite some time. Vin did this at the end of the third book before realizing what she actually needed to do to win. (If I remember right…) /spoilers!!!!!!

  • Bob Jones

    Regarding the powers of Atium: (MISTBORN SPOILERS)

    (Mistborn 3: The Hero of Ages p708 Tor paperback)

    Then, Elend burned duralumin with his atium.
    Sight, Sound, Strength, Power, Glory, Speed!
    Blue lines sprayed from his chest like rays of light. But those were overshadowed by one thing. Atium plus duralumin. In a flash of knowledge, Elend felt a mind-numbing wealth of information. All became white around him as knowledge saturated his mind.

    As you can see, Elend (another Mistborn) gained understanding and knowledge from burning duralumin and atium. As duralumin only enhances the other metals, and does not give them new properties, the knowledge and understanding came from Atium.


    I always imagined that greater understanding was the main effect of atium, and images of the future were a side effect of that. There were three ways described to fight a mistborn burning atium: 1. With another mistborn burning atium, 2. By overwhelming them with so many attacks that there is no way to avoid them all, and 3. To wait for them to run out. Quick Ben can’t do #1, and #3 might or might not happen, but it sounds like Quick Ben could easily do #2.

    @ Wanderer
    Atium would show (and let her understand, see above) where he was teleporting to, letting her hit him.

  • Tiam

    @Toblakai – In that insatnce with the skykeeps he doesnt fly but stays on the ground as hes better back up. He does however fly in MOI while in Capustan

  • Viridian

    Is anyone else getting seriously annoyed with all the mind screwing everyone is getting away with on vin in these write ups? It’s like we’re pretending she doesn’t even have copper.

  • Ray

    @ Tiam
    He does fly up to the sky keep to help Kalam after, when Kalam is having such a hard time, he then asks Quick Ben why he didn’t just do that to begin with, to which Ben replied he could back him up better from the ground.

  • @Je-Nes-Pas-Ecrire-Les Fantastiques

    To those of us that know French what your name is spelt wrong. Also your verb isn’t conjugated.

    If you are trying to say ‘I don’t write Fantasy’ which is the verb that you are using then it would actually be

    je n’écris pas le fantastique.

    so to those of us who know French your name barely makes sense…I mean nes isn’t even a word!!!!! Your name translates as: I not to write some fantasy,

    Or at least if your French is perfectly correct then my French university lectuerers must be teaching me wrong…

  • Archon

    Maybe you folks could just learn a foreign language that matters and disregard who’s French is correct???

    (Ducks incoming projectiles and darts away)

  • Tialin

    Thank you, thank you, thank you for the best laugh I’ve had all week! If you aren’t already a writer, you SHOULD BE! Too funny!

    LOLOLOL – still chuckling

  • @Laura – It might possibly be Québécois French? There are a lot of Malazan fans in Canada.

    @Bob – I managed to find the passage you quoted, which isn’t very helpful at all. It doesn’t explain HOW his mind was enhanced, or what exactly it was that he understood (aside from finally figuring out from the clues he already had what was going on with Marsh). Most notably, atium combined with duralumin didn’t even save him from Marsh.

    Here’s the best explanation I’ve seen so far of what atium does:


    Hero of Ages Ch. 81

    Elend was a god.

    He’d never burned atium before, and his first experience with the metal filled him with wonder, The koloss around him all emitted atium shadows—images that moved before they did, showing Elend exactly what they would do. He could see into the future, if only a few seconds. In a battle, that was just what one needed

    He could feel the atium enhancing his mind, making him capable of reading and using all of the new information. He didn’t even have to pause and think. His arms moved of their own volition, swinging his sword with awesome precision.


    The enhanced understanding only allows Elend to interpret the images of the opponent’s future actions.

  • Annabel

    I appreciate the answers, everyone! I must say I’m really glad these two ended up in the final, they are a very good match to each other.

    There’s a lot of QB fans saying Quick would win easily because of his “one-hit-kill” attacks, like lighting the air around Vin on fire, etc. I’m not so sure that such things should be taken as instant attacks – Vin certainly has the ability to deal with most if not all of them, it’s just a question of how fast she can react and counter what QB dishes out, which is pretty much the same as it goes for Vin’s attacks on Quick. Certainly the physical+healing enhancements of Pewter combined with the foresight of Atium and/or Electrum would give her enough resistance that almost nothing would kill her “instantly”. Plus the bit of foresight granted her might not be enough to evade whatever attack Quick uses but should shorten her reaction time.

    Which is pretty much how I see Quick reacting to her own attacks, too. There’s no reason for either of them to have more knowledge of their opponent than the other, so they’re both going to be living on quick reactions to the enemy’s attacks.

  • rarefiednight

    I don’t know much about quick, but I know that in EVERY cagematch so far, Vin has been depicted as far less capable than she actually is. This one is no exception. Also, how many people voted for Quick just because he won in the writeup? We really need a writeup for each side, because these influence people a lot – and obviously the cage match execs are far from impartial, as they really ought to be. Vin is stronger than this, better than this. It shows that none of the writers really know and focus on each character

    Vin FTW!!

  • Viridian

    Yeah, these write up’s completely ignore Copper, which is the ‘mind protection’ metal. Oh vin is seeing hallucinatory visions? Uh… BURN COPPER! Copper cloud, visions gone!

    They ignored this in the write up against jon snow to… while granting jon snow powers he does not have…

  • Kolo Navi

    Problwm is, that in fact, Vin cant win (hohoho, Im poet). Its not matter of write up. Its matter of fact. Allomancy is great, she is great in it. But in comparison to raw power combined to subtle touch and sneaky mind… Physical and healing enhancements means nothing, when you constatntly burn, got hit by lightning and then frozen to degree when body breaks. And then someone show at your back and slice your throat 🙂 She stands no chance. But I like her, she is good character, just not quick…and powerful enough 🙂

  • Bob Jones

    @ Terez

    MISTBORN SPOILERS THROUGHOUT (Hero of Ages, ch. 81,82 p708-716)

    Elend dying to Marsh felt like it was deliberate (for Elend) to me, as it directly led to Vin attacking Ruin at that moment, the mutual destruction of them, and Sazed being able to gain the power of both before the rising sun or the koloss army killed everything there. Duralumin and atium, at least if not atium alone gives you knowledge/understanding of the future.

    As for the “understanding” aspect of atium, understanding is perhaps too strong of a word, but atium’s effect leads to exactly the same result. The atium shadows combined with the fact that “[Elend’s] arms moved of their own volition.” (ch. 81) seems to suggest that you make the right decisions automatically. This would lead to dodging fireballs, pits, etc… even if you didn’t know what they are.

  • SilentArchangel

    I’m a huge fan of the malazan series, so I’m obviously biased, but honestly, Quick Ben never uses his full power, because he is always in control. I accept that Vin probably is godly in her world, but the worlds are just too different, Quick Ben’s abilities in Malazan is already better than most, if we put him into other worlds, there’s no way others can possibly win. The matchup probably has it quick realistic, although I like the one written by Luci more cause the whole tired of this stupid competition and looking for a way out so both can win is so Quick Ben.

    I spent a day reading all these comments, If we discount the one-hit-kills that everyone keeps talking about, just for the sake of assumption cause this is the finals between two super mages and they don’t generally do one hit kills in bit events like this, then I would give the edge to Quick Ben, if only for his massive intellect.

  • Choris


    I’d say more people voted for Quick Ben after having read these comments then due to the fact Suvudu picked him as the most likely victor.

    The more I read these comments the more I’m convinced Quick Ben would win and I haven’t read the Malzan books and I am a massive Mistborn fan. I voted for Vin because she is my homegirl but I’ve no delusions that she would win against Quick Ben from has been stated here (mostly by Luci and a few others). Sounds to me that copper wouldn’t work against this guy if he got in and used his Mockra (i think that’s it) on her – she wouldn’t KNOW she was affected. From what I gather it rewrites your brains way of interperating things. She wouldn’t know that what she saw wasn’t real.

    All I know is that I am planning on reading the Malazan books as soon as I finish re-reading (for the fifth time) the FInal Empire.

  • ThinkingMalaz


    I don’t think he ever raises the dead throughout the series, but he DOES levitate First in Gardens of the Moon when he and Kalam are following Rallick to find the Assasins guild. Rakes Tiste Andii Mage assasins intervene. In MoI he uses Serc to levitate. Those are two instances that immediately spring to mind. I have no doubt he is capable of raising the dead (He knows how to use Hood’s warren after all) but he seems not very interested in doing so. I DO know he shows a lot of knowledge on the subject when he’s having a tete a tete with Bauchelain and Korbal Broach

  • MurasakiRiyu

    I have never read the Mistborn series, yet have read all the Malazan books extensively, so obviously have a biased opinion in favour of Quick Ben. Certainly as Quick Ben’s intelligence is described as being equal if not superior to the ascendants and Gods of the Malazan “world’s” I think he’d be highly likely to win, especially as mage duels rely not only upon the raw power of what one wields but also the ability to judge, make accurate assessments and then release ones power effectively in the most dvastating manner possible. At this stage in a tournament Quick Ben would be inherently aware of all of Vin’s powers and thus be able to counter them accordingly, it is a characteristic of Quick Ben that he never enters a situation unless he knows every eventuality possible. However, since Vin is an “allomancer” I have to wonder. Taking the Malzan worlds otataral, which is essentially a metal, just look at its geological location, characteristics, and how it is utilised. If Vin prepared herself properly and managed to obtain otataral (even in dust form) she might just be able to supress Quick Ben’s power enough to obtain victory. Since otataral is not mentioned in the write up however, one would have to assume that Vin did not do her “homework” giving Quick Ben the advantage.

  • Bauchelain


    But the illusions don’t come from mind powers.
    There is a warren that can confuse and alter perceptions(Mockra) but illusions are created by bending light and shadow with Meanas to create visual constructs–think holograms.
    Mediocre mages’ illusions are bidimensional and one-way but Quick bens’s are solid,tridimensional images capable of killing people.

  • Tiam

    thinking Malaz@- Ahhh yes a much better example of QB using it in a fight. I havnt done a GOTM reread in many moons.

    QB and unintended terrible puns FTW

  • @ Terez – It’s not Canansdian French, its not that different, its internet translator French (so absolute nonesense) which isn’t anyone’s fault except the stupid people who run it!

    It’s in the wrong word order and the verb is an infinative which is impossible with ‘je’ it would be like me saying: I to want that Vin win. (je veux que Vin va gagner)

    But it is beside the point really! It is annoying that Copper has been ignored, it’s quite clear that the writers don’t want Vin to win, whether it’s because she’s a girl, from Mistborn, or just cause she’s Sanderson’s characters.

    Personnally I think the best way to have done it would be to compile a better and more detailed table of weaknesses/strengths and not do a write up at all, because then some people can make up their own minds, fans can submit their versions of events and then debate amoungst themselves who would win, that would be much more interesting and fair!!!

    Though I am biased towards Vin!


  • Wolverine

    I win.

  • Barryl

    I voted for Delat. I never read Mistborn. I might read it at some stage though, it seems ok.

    I do think people are overestimating him a little though. Trull faced down Icarium and left him with a fear of spear wielders that defied his memory losses.

    QB just blasted him with magic for a while, he would have fallen, like any would if not for the intervention of one of the most powerful beings in the malazan world. He downed the three sisters, but it is revealed later why that was possible apart from the obvious fact that they turned on each other mid fight. Even the Edur Hold thing was an illusion until Bottle and his furry friend (She saved QB’s ass twice) intervened to blow it up in power.

    Granted his display against the Nah’Ruk is impressive, and he goes back to basics in TCG but he is not an ascendant. When he does ascend, Shadowthrone will have a fit.

  • Wanderer

    Based on the comments here I really have grown to respect both these characters and their respective series. That being said, however, I still must admit that it seems as though Quick Ben would win this. Allow me to share my chain of thought (to be clear: not trying to do a write up) while trying to convince myself otherwise.

    Match begins. Using her enhanced talents, Vin quickly spots her opponent, burns her metals, draws her coins, aims and fires. All this took, at most, a second. Blink and you’ll have missed the attack. Problem: Quick Ben has escaped into the floor (using a warren) within that time frame because he needed only 1 spell at the speed of thought to do so. She looks for Ben. Suddenly it’s hard to breathe. As if her lungs were filled with sand….

    Wait. This isn’t right. She’s stronger than this.

    Rewind. Match begins. Vin burns atium to see into the future. She predicts Ben hiding in the floor and the attack he is about to unleash. But she is strong and fast. She dodges the attack by jumping into the air. All the air around her is suddenly on fire.

    No…she should’ve seen that coming

    Rewind. Using her foresight and enhanced abilities, She miraculously dodges all of Quick’s attacks and lands back on the floor, ready to counter. Using more of her metals she fights off Quick’s illusions and locates him in the floor.

    Note that I’m going out on a limb here and assuming that she has all this power.
    I don’t want to seem unfair just because of my lack of knowledge.

    She tries to pull him. No luck. Quick’s a mage, he needs no metal and so has none on him. Using all the necessary metals she, while dodging quick’s multiple barrages of spells and illusions, tries to shoot him with her coins. No luck. The coins can’t penetrate the floor deep enough.

    No. That just seems unfair. It can’t be right.

    Rewind. Using all her strength the coins do make it to Quick’s location in the floor.
    [Again, I’m assuming that Quick can even be hurt while he’s in this state]
    But even with all that power the coins can’t travel through the floor as fast as through the air. Quick dodges the attack easily and continues his counters. The coins don’t work. Conveniently, some of Ben’s spells seem to have broken off part of the wall.Still dodging quick’s spells, she runs over and picks up a large heavy chunk. Using all her strength, she slams it into the ground. This creates a massive shock wave that rattles Quick Ben and cracks the upper part of the floor. Unfortunately, Ben is hiding deeper underground than that
    and was not seriously injured. Now without weapons and running low on metals, Vin tries to think of what else to do.The spells have stopped for now but she can already see the shadows of more to come…

    This is where I run out of options for Vin. What else can she do? What other form of attack does she have that can reach him down there? The way that leaves off is in no way a stalemate. I know neither character can keep up that kind of fight forever but with Vin relying on a finite supply of metals and having to constantly be on the move to survive/Dodge Ben’s attacks [again, assuming she can do that] which would require using most of them She would run dry long before Ben does.

    I know it seems one sided and a bit biased but that’s really as far as I see this match going. And to be honest I tried giving Vin as many advantages as possible. This is just my way of saying that the Mistborn side of this debate is losing. Luci pretty much said it all and no one seems to have been able to adequately counter the scenario in Shiara’s write up (which I enjoyed much more than the official one and, in case one hasn’t noticed, is the basis for my chain of thoughts) so once again….Quick Ben’s gonna win this one.

  • @Bob – It still seems to me that atium+duralumin helps you to make the right decisions automatically based on the information that is available – I don’t think there is any evidence that Vin would be able to read QB’s mind or understand his magic, or how to prevent it. Add that to the fact that the duralumin causes a short flare only, burning up all of Vin’s metal stores so that she has to swallow more after dodging the first attack (assuming she can)…it doesn’t seem to me to be a very dependable method against QB.

    @Laura – I just figured it was worth asking. 😉

  • Serenegoose

    Voting’s slowed down a bit. Didn’t predict that. All the fans must have burnt themselves out before the finale, hehe. A pity, really – I think Vin should be putting up more of a fight than this based on her prior performances. It seems a little anticlimactic, and I won’t pretend that I’m not disappointed in that. Still, not over yet, for a couple of days at least. 🙂

  • @Serenegoose – It seems that the WoT fans on Facebook are getting annoyed with the cage match. The plug for Vin vs Jon Snow garnered at least 3,000 votes for Vin, but the plug for the final didn’t do so well. Plus, the ASOIAF fans are disillusioned and therefore unwilling to throw their votes at either candidate in the finals. (This is evident from the voting patterns in Perrin vs Jon Snow, along with some comments.)

  • Serenegoose

    @Terez: Ah, I see. That all makes sense then. Still a pity, but thanks for the info.

  • Tracer

    Well, I don’t know who quick ben is, but I don’t care, Vin would win. Atium alone give her a huge advantage, but even without it she would dominate. Especially if this were taking place after the books, since she turns into an all powerful god-like force, but I guess that would just be unfair.

  • Viridian


    Considering what I’m being told of Quick Ben… the man is a god from the beginning of the series on… not particularly the sort of character one feels genuine thematically tension or concern for, doesn’t really sound like a series I’d be much entertained by.

    If Quick Ben can be a god, I see no reason why Vin shouldn’t be considered as having her mist enhanced ‘end boss’ style abilities.

  • @Tracer – A better approach might be to say ‘I’m voting for Vin because I’m a Vin fanboy and she is awesome!’ rather than insisting she would win when you don’t know anything about her opponent.

  • Serenegoose

    I think for some reason people ‘fanboying’ has been taken as a bit of an insult in this cage match. As an unabashed Vin fangirl (as this comments thread may just-so-slightly reveal) I don’t see why I’d pretend to make a deeper choice than that. A genuine ‘who would win’ contest that pit sword-and-board warriors against mages has been absurd from the outset, and from the overall character roster there’s always been an objective ‘most powerful’ (more or less, from what I remember of Pug he ought to have given Quick Ben more of a fight. Distinct memory of less powerful mages of his class melting several hundred/thousand men in an instant)

    ‘Who’s your favourite?’ is at least an enjoyably subjective question that can be debated, even if, this time, Vin would have won for me no matter who she was put against (save perhaps, Saturns Children’s “Freya Nakamichi-47”, had she appeared.)

    Oof, I sound awfully pretentious and self-superior now, but I’ve been holding that rant in since the first match and the first ‘fanboy’-as-insult got slung. It irks.

  • Raest

    after reading some posts i sense that some people get the wrong idea about quick ben.. in the malazan novels he is faaar away from godhood, his powers, as awesome and huge as they may sound for people unfamiliar with the malazan world are in comparison to other “beings” are mediocre… he may be one of the best human mages in the books, but in terms of raw power he isnt that special.. what makes him special is his versatility, his ability to use 12 warrens (ordinary human mages can use 1 or 2 if they are gifted) because there are 12 souls of human mages united in him, which leads me to the part where his real strength lies: his incredible intelligence, i mean in his brain work 12 brilliant, highly educated and experienced minds together scheming and molding plans 24/7.. his “role” in the novels is not walking around and blasting everything because he is so powerful and unstoppable, but making deals and contracts with the REALLY powerful beings in the malazan world, like gods and ascendants (which are like gods, and often referred to as gods, but mortal born) and tricking them into doing what he wants, one way or another…

    but to come back to this contest: in comparison to the others he clearly is overpowered and would kill most of them in a one hit situation.. he would need only one warren to defeat most of them. at least the ones i know (Logen Ninefingers, Jon Snow, Eric Northman, Snape *lol* and, well, Zedd would maybe put up a bit of a fight, but still, using only creative magic wouldnt be enough)

    i dont know much about the mistborn series, but this allomancy (sounds actually awesome btw) just wouldnt make up for the raw power of 12 warrens.. i think the way this fight would go is, him disappearing in the moment the fight starts (this means he is elsewhere, not invisible or something, -> undetectable) then he would use 1-3 warrens (i’d say Rashan, Meanas and Mockra; which are illusion/shadow, darkness, and mind magic) to confuse her and trap her in place… and then blast her with a ray of the remaining warrens intertwined with each other, what would turn pretty much anyone not properly protected to soup…

  • @Serenegoose – It’s not intended as an insult at all. Every post I make at Malazan Empire, for example, has ‘WoT fangirl’ stamped on it. I’m proud of it. I was just suggesting that it’s silly to insist that Vin would win when you don’t know anything about QB at all. There’s nothing particularly wrong with voting based on fanboyism or fangirlism, as has been pointed out several times in the comments on this match and the previous, that I know of. When people post to say as much, usually we appreciate the honesty.

    As for Pug…it’s far more believable for QB to beat Pug than it is for Perrin to beat Paul Atreides…sure, Pug would have given QB a run for his money, but from what I understand it was a closely-matched fight for the most part.

  • Kettle

    Given that Terez is a self-proclaimed WoT fangirl herself, I doubt she’s attempting to insult anyone. Most of us aren’t looking down on people who are voting based on who they like most. Personally, I’m impressed with their honesty. If that’s what they want to do, that’s fine. At least they’re not bullshitting and blustering like some people have been doing throughout. Mind you, this ones been very restrained, which is nice 🙂

  • Serenegoose

    Oh! I hadn’t even thought… It was not my intention in any way to imply -you- were using it as an insult, merely that some people had in prior contests, and every time I’d seen it in that way it irked me. I see now, looking at what I wrote, that it didn’t come across like that, however. I think my perspective was more an attempted explanation as to why people may not want to admit they’re just fanboying, rather than anything else. Unnecessary, perhaps, but it was a bit of a rant.

  • Archon

    Raest has the right of it… Quick Ben is not godly in his raw power… He is simply tremendously versitile, so that he is never left without an option… and with his unbelievable intelligence, he generally knows how to use all the options at his disposal to maximum advantage… As was stated before, if not for some timely intervention, he would have been owned by Icarium (who is godlike in power), and of couse guys like Anomander Rake (also godlike in power) would own his face… but then again, Icarium or Rake would mop up this tournament too… Quick was a great decision to throw in here, because his IS powerful enough to win, but it’s not a done deal… It’s not inconceivable for Vin to beat QB… it’s just unlikely.

  • Serenegoose

    Archon: The only way I could see Vin (without preservation) taking this is if we gave her Feruchemy as well – That would at least give her the raw survivability to take a few flavours of insta-kill nuke to the face and keep going. It would also be ridiculously canon-smashing. As it is, flared pewter will only take her so far, survivability-wise, and it doesn’t seem far enough. I held out hope whilst I was under the impression Quick Ben’s (sorry, the QB abbreviatory acronym is taken up already in my mind) magic was ritual based, but speed-of-thought casting is pretty much endgame for Vin.

    Still, at least she’s way cooler. 🙂

  • Spectre of Eschaton

    Cooler than Quick Ben…? *head explodes* 😀

    Seems like this debate’s more or less ran its course, everyone’s cards on the table. Couldn’t care less who wins the popularity contest (and the prize is…? Seriously.) but the back and forth has been fun. Nice to see a relative lack of flaming and bickering here.

    I just hope Malazan gets into the next cagematch. Maybe Kallor for the villains match.

  • @Serenegoose – It’s okay; rants are good for the soul. 🙂 I thought maybe that your rant was aimed over my head, but since I had been the last person to use the word I figured I’d clear things up on my end.

  • Archon

    @ Spectre of Eschaton

    Kallor?! As if we are trying to find a bigger D-bag than The Mountain That Rides for the next villans match… The cool thing about the Malazan series is that you can make a case for a lot of guys being “villians”, since so many of them walk the line pretty closely… It wouldn’t be a stretch to call Karsa a villian, or Draconus, or Kilamandros… the list goes on…

  • Serenegoose

    Best villain, by a loooooong way, goes to MorningLightMountain from Peter F Hamiltons Commonwealth saga.

    Not sure how well it’d do in a cagematch though. It’d just sort of sit there and wallow at you, really. Functionally invincible though, so it’s got that going for it!

    Hmm, speaking of more sci-fi oriented contestants, how’s about letting Skaffen-Amtiskaw from Use of Weapons play next time? You let Takeshi Kovacs…

  • Spectre of Eschaton


    I actually went at that from the opposite angle. 😛 Was trying to think of a “villain” from Malazan, thought of those guys, thought to myself, “hmm… they can be nasty, but they’re not *really* villains”. Kallor was the closest I could think of to being a straight bad guy, though even he has his sympathetic moments (between reminiscing about dashing his baby childrens’ skulls against the wall…)

  • Bombur

    What about the Errant for a villans match? Then the Let’s Hate The Errant Club on the Malazan forums could organise a campaign against him winning. That would be pretty funny.

    As for who is a villan in Malazan, I guess it’s a case of glass half full or empty 😉

  • Bob Jones

    @ Terez

    Atium+duralumin would only help in some contrived situations (at least several seconds available at the start of the match without attacking, preferably more), but I don’t think that it is limited to information that would normally be available to you (see my interpretation of Elend vs. Marsh). It wouldn’t let her read Quick Ben’s mind, or show her explicitly how to prevent his attacks. What Atium+duralumin would do is give her knowledge of what would happen in the fight, if she hadn’t burned atuim at that time (eg. steps out, then she is killed by fireball), giving her foreknowledge until she uses that foreknowledge to change anything. Depending on Quick Ben’s information gathering magics, and the setup, this could be extremely useful. The vision could also presumably start from quite some time in the past (eg. a minute or more before the fight).

    Duralumin+atium might instead show an infinite number of possibilities (every possible future) and although I do not think this is the case, it is not contradicted in any way by the books. There is very little information about atium+duralumin, or the more subtle effects of atium.

    Also, duralumin only depletes the metal(s) that is/are being burned at that time, leaving the rest unaffected.

    Lastly, does anyone know if Quick Ben usually reacts subconsciously while fighting, is more likely to use conscious thought, or a combination of both? Quick as thought is typically 330 milliseconds to react to movement using conscious thought, or as little as 150 milliseconds for a reflex. (Wikipedia, Mental chronometry, Reflex)

  • Ali

    I’ll admit, for this match, I voted completely fangirl. Vin for the Win! She’s the rare breed of bad-ass female fantasy lead, and is totally one of my favorites, ever. 😀

  • johthohar

    WHAT THE HELL!? I’ve been through every damned comment and not ONE DAMNED PERSON has been overly rude or unreasonable!!!!!!! If I can’t get my melodramatic fix from fanboys/girls debating who is the most kickass hero between two series then I might be forced to turn to Jersey Shore!!!! Why don’t you just shoot me now!!!!!!!???!!!! Please try to stop being so damn mature everybody!!!!

  • johthohar

    @Laura… I think I may be the only person who sees the irony in you criticizing someone’s French grammar while utterly failing at English. But don’t worry…. I love you anyway. 😉

  • johthohar

    Honestly… The only way I could see Vin winning this match is if Kruppe was in the audience babbling incessantly at Quick and distracting him with his never ending but always highly amusing monologues.

    Side note: Am I the only one who thinks John Rhys-Davies (played Gimli in LotR) would be PERFECT for Kruppe if they ever adapted the Malazan books for Film or Television? I mean seriously… Who could do it better?

  • Davanshire

    I haven’t read either of these series. I was really hoping for a Perrin v Jon Snow final, not based on talent, but on the fact I have read those series and knew exactly who I’d vote for (Jon Snow). I’ve read the comments here and despite a lot of ground being covered several times over I think based on what I have read and what the match up says I would have to go for Quick Ben. I think you have to consider where each character ranks in their own worlds and then stack that against each other. Whilst not a god, and not near to being a god, it would seem that Quick Ben’s power ranks him very high in the Malazan world and whilst Vin is powerful in her own (not including this Perserverance thing) she doesn’t stand way out ahead of the others (from what I can tell). I think it would be close but the sheer conviction Malazan fans have about Quick Ben makes me feel he is the likely winner.

    Also, I am very interested in reading the Malazan books now – any series that can spurr a character that has such an avid fanbase must be read. Plus, from the sounds of it, the series has several characters that inspire such loyalty and obsession. Should be a good read (I hope)

  • Ashamed WoT Fan

    I’ve been following the cage matches and I have to say that as far as fanbases go, the Erikson and Sanderson fan bases are a much more respectful and mature lot then my own fanbase. You just have to look at the comments on past cage matches and the common factor between all the unpleasant and petty comments is a WoT fan.

    I am very impressed with the level of civility and dicussion occuring on this thread.

    I haven’t read Mistborn yet – though I have it sitting on my desk – or Malazan series – I plan to buy it soon – so I am not voting on this match as I cannot decide who would most likely win without further information.

    I think which ever side wins it will be a well deserved victory.

  • johthohar

    Both series are definitely worth reading. Given I’ve only just started the Malazan books but I was instantly hooked. There are several characters in the series that exhibit badassery of an exceptional level (Whiskeyjack, Karsa Orlong, Icarium, Kalam, etc.) but Quick Ben stands out from the croud by his genius level intelect alone. A warning, however: The Malazan world is vast and complex and Erikson kinda just dumps you into the midst of it with little explanation of how everything works…. but press on… You’ll start to understand everything the further you get into it! Also…. The Mistborn books rock. Check them out too.

  • Tiam

    Its nice to see this cage match actually inspiring people to read Malaz now rather than the WOT clash before this which completely detracted away from the point of these matches.

    As for the QB comments, he is powerful, one of the most powerful high mages we see. However he is by no means the most powerful character in the series. You can kinda think of QB as a jack of all trades. A master magician with a good level of strength but not as completly devoted to one branch of magic like Tattersail or Tayshrenn who are masters of one warren. Thats what gives QB his versatility and his experience comes froma long time of using those powers in combination.

  • TrypB


    I really hate to nerd rage at you, but Tayschrenn has mastered effectively all warren magic and is a priest of Drekk to boot. He only accesses them one at a time like a normal person, but he has zero warren limiters. In later books circumstances force squad level mages to use a lot of mokra, one most lack any familiarity with and find rather unpleasant, but they seem to make do. There are many jacks of circumstance. On deeper thought, I think lore from like reapers gale is conflicting with early stuff…. I think he may be typed in Gardens of the Moon and Memories of Ice. Its not that QB need multiple souls in him to know different warrens… its the different warrens at once. In the cage matches he tends to go one warren at a time, here again I think this is a product of creating an exciting linear narrative, and I”m sure the other side is equally constrained by narrative convenience.

  • @Johthohar

    I will admit English spelling/grammar never has been my strong point, and I have always found it strange that I can do it better in my second language (French) than my first! Though to be honest if everyone understands me (which I hope so because unlike my brother I type with full words and not weird abreviations that noone can understand) then I don’t mind how many mistakes (grammatical or spelling wise) are picked out! Though I will admit that I fail at typing so many of my spelling errors (such as Canadian) are down to typos! Sorry also just thought, you might not be from England, so my grammar might be wrong where you are but not where I am, things like the word colour for example. Though it may just be that my grammar is wrong.

    I agree with everyone who is saying that this seems to be a peaceful match between fans, I am actually enjoying this cage match much more than the others. I mean from everything people were saying about Jon Snow last round there was no way that he could have won. I’m glad he didn’t. It makes me think that if QB does win this one then it won’t be that bad, I mean he does seem absurdly powerful, and I will read the books after my June exams, but also because the fans haven’t just been saying stuff like: ‘He wins on sheer awesomeness’. They have been admitting that Vin would give a close fight (and also that the fight up there is a load of rubbish!

    So Vin to Win! But if QB does it won’t be a crushing defeat!

  • King Lear

    @Ashamed WoT Fan, to be fair MBotF has had it’s share of asswipe commenters too. I can’t really speak for any of the other series’, but it is, after all, a sad fact of life that there are some people who are not self aware. I had a peek at the other match, and it also lacks a certain aspect of unbalanced fandom mouthing off. Maybe the semi’s were just an emotional time 😉

    Also, hooray for reading Erikson, I really hope you enjoy it as much as I do!


  • Bombur

    I’m enjoying this fun, interesting and most importantly civil discussion between two ‘opposed’ fan bases. Both sides should be proud, I think, for the display of sportsmanship and lack of retardedry.

    Now I’m here for QB and that I don’t particularly like Mistborn (just my opinion). But I respect Sanderson as a human being (seems like a really nice guy who is great with his fans plus he bashed Lord GK in his fanfic 😉 ), and for the wonderful things he’s done with WOT. And now that I’ve come to know his fan base, I respect it too. If I had a hat, it would go off to you guys.

  • Tiam

    @Tryp B

    There is only a few instances where we see Tays use any magic at all. for you to flippantly claim he has mastered all warrens (what him being a failed demi drek has to do with anything i dont know) is pure specualtion. We know for a FACT he has mastered telas in the same way we know Tattersail mastered thyr. How do we know he has no ‘warren limiters’ whatever they are btw? I was speaking in definites not speculation.

    We have absolutely no idea the depths of Tays skill. Im not suggesting its the souls that allow mages to gain proficiency in more than one warren but the fact that other mages weve seen specialise in one warren and may have a level of skill with others does not mean they do not devote themselves to one. Would QB have the level of skill over Telas that Tay has? probably not yet I would say he has more access to other warrens.

    Your example of sqad mages doing what they can in the circumstances has absolutely no relevance. Even though they all learn a few low level Mockra spells for the campaign in Lether does not detract from the fact it is clearly stated in BH that mages like Balgrid and Bottle are Meanas. Now bottle is an exception but Balgrid is solely Meanas in BH and learns a few Mockra cantrips offscreen before RG. Also mages like Ebron who is a squad mage have a specialisation in Ruse highlighting that even on a low level they have a specilisation.

  • Annabel


    Throughout the series Tayschrenn has used not only High Telas, but also Thyr, Denul, either Mockra or Meanas and clearly does a LOT of demonic summoning and binding either through Hood’s Path or Aral Gamelon (or both). Being a former Demidrek, he would almost certainly be very competent with D’riss as well.

  • Barryl

    Tayschrenn seems to be a master demonic summoner, certainly more powerful than the other one we see: Bauchelain. He was able to bind a demon lord of the galain, a being close to Rake in sheer power. Now that is mastery.

    I don’t remember Quick ever summoning a demon alone. I know he made use of Tays Korvalharai (Pearl) to cover his retreat from the Andii, which resulted in my favourite scene.

    As Rake descends amongst his assassin mages…

    Pearl: “Do you pity me?”

  • dexterstjock

    Someone else pointed this out on the Malazan boards, but there’s a lot of (semi-)spoilers being thrown around on both sides here. Might wanna watch those, especially with so many not having read both series.

    Anyway, Tayschrenn makes everybody shit their pants in fear, including the Avowed. However we don’t know enough about either QB or Tayschrenn to even begin to compare their talents. Tayschrenn has a badass reputation, and from what we’ve seen clearly deserves it, but because Quick is so loath to reveal the extent of his ability (and we see Tayschrenn so little) we have no real notion as to the extent of their power. The only human mage you could possibly claim as being supreme based on reputation alone would be T’riss, but even then there’s some tricky technicalities to work through there.

  • AHEM

    Well, it looks like Quick Ben has this one. Not by a huge margin, but still enough to be the clear winner.

    I guess that’s fitting. Though Vin is one of my favorite characters and I’ll always back her in any sort of cagematch like this, after looking through all of these comments, it does seem likely that Quick Ben is packing some powers that would finish the fight, and he’d probably win at least 7 times out of 10. I’m okay with that; this match came down to logic and fighting prowess, which is fitting. The important thing to me is that Vin lost to a worthy opponent, and didn’t go down to some swordsman with no powers who was running on popularity power alone to get this far. She beat Jon Snow, a major victory, and at this point is the first female character to reach the finals. I think that’s enough to do justice to her as a character without pushing her beyond what she could accomplish on fanpower.

    At least Vin stood a chance of taking Quick Ben down, not like Perrin or Jon Snow, and at least Quick Ben was a worthy opponent who is a badass in his own right. I’m definitely going to be reading the Malazan Book of the Fallen soon, and I’ll know to keep an eye on this player in particular.

    Given how civil this debate has become, I think maybe a better ending to this fight would be one without a kill, like Quick Ben besting Vin, but then sending her back through a Warren to her own world. It fits more with the worthy opponent reaction both sides seem to be having.

  • Whiskeyjack

    Ah, a worthy finale, QB winning and some sparkling debates with no retardness for good measure. What is the world coming to, i wonder… :p

    Vin is cool, of that i have no doubt. You’d certainly wouldn’t want to be caught rummaging in her pockets, or she’d stick various bits of metal in your skull for your troubles, and i don’t mean tooth fillings. But QB is just too varied in his ways to knock someone out, too skilled in his manipulations of the plethora of sheer magery that he possesses.

    The only way that QB can be beat is if his opponent is:

    a. Immune to magic
    b. Even quicker of thought than QB (Kruppe, perhaps?)
    c. Has the ability to separate QB’s hoard of souls.

    On a side note, if i remember correctly, wasn’t Pearl (the Apt QB summoned to cover his ass from Rake’s attentions) one of Tays? Hence the Imperial demon tag. Tays is undoubtedly masterful, but he can’t bombard someone with 7 warrens at once. Not saying that QB would win hands down, Tays might just summon hordes of demons and praetorians and watch QB get swallowed up by something nasty. But QB wouldn’t exactly be easily brushed aside either. I believe that’s the beauty of Sieur Erikson’s masterwork; how no one being, godly or otherwise, is overwhelmingly superior than others.

  • cloudsword

    I think next year, they should have Kelsier (Mistborn). He is the epitome of bad-ass.
    btw’s Mistborn fanboy

  • Spectre of Eschaton

    For the next good guys match, I’d love to see Onos T’oolan from Malazan. 300,000 year old undead neanderthal swordmaster with an unbreakable, 100-pound, razor-sharp flint sword he can swing faster than the eye can see; can fall to dust and reform at will, has spells of elder magic reinforcing his bones against damage, and can expanded his Tellan warren to nullify magic in a miles-wide radius that makes mages’ heads explode. Talk about badass. 😛

    Oh, and he’s pretty far down on the ladder of power for Malazan. 😀

  • Torrin

    @Tiam – I don’t like to speculate on how pwoerful a mage is – I like to take my examples from the books themselves. As such, I agree with your assessment of Tayschrenn completely.

  • jman27

    I have read both but kept my vote for Quick Ben as I have done throughout. Quick Ben is just a really intelligent, powerful and resourceful character. He is one to do his research before he gets in a battle and as a result seems to know how things will play out pretty well. Best luck to both sides.

  • Ian

    For a cheap when against virtually anyone, potentially excluding pug, QB just has to trick his opponent into a warren then close it. It may not kill them but i’d assume it would be enough to count as a victory. Granted i could see most surviving long in hoods realm, especially around Toll the Hounds. Shouldnt be hard with as intelligent he is, little bit of meneas, mockra, and rashan/kurald galain(probably overkill for trickery, lol).

  • johthohar


    I was just kidding around. Given the friendly nature of most of the comments here I didn’t think it would hurt lol. I actually was the first comment on your blog post of how you thought this matchup would go. I love Vin too, but you just have to read the Malazan books. Quick Ben isn’t just a badass. He’s easily one of the most likeable characters I’ve ever read. Just wait for one moment a little more than halfway through the first book. If you’re anything like me you’ll have a huge smile on your face and start pumping your fist in the air. Haha!

  • Archon

    @ Barryl

    That’s one of your first real introductions to how terrifyingly powerful Rake is… The battle at Pale was of course impressive, but when this greater demon is summoned and basically says non-chalantly, “Who you want me kill?” And when QB points out Rake and the Demon knows he’s not only about to get beat, but literally get ‘speedbumped’ by this guy… you’re like, “holy crap”.

  • Kah-thurak

    I guess this final is truly worthy of the spirit and the goals of this tournament. The guys at suvudu said it was mainly about getting to know books you havent read yet, and a lot of people here stated that they were going to read the MBotF now, and I for one have just bought the Mistborn books.

    In addition there is no venom in the comments and, if the absolute number of votes cast can be a measure of this, less cheating.

    And my favourite character seems to win 😛

  • Kanubis

    Absolutely, I’m a huge Malazan fanboy myself but this contest and the nature of the debate has made me very interested to read the Mistborn book.

    And so I shall. Once I’ve completed my post-TCG compete series reread of course…

  • Geddes

    All for QB!!!

    Think they should put in the Seguleh 1st. Does anyone know who that is btw?!?!

    Think a good villain would be the Crippled God himself, or Skinner?!

    I guess you people have read Esselmonts books that coinside with Eriksons? Especially Knight of Knives that actually takes place before Gardens of the moon?

    Am def goona give the Mistborn books a go though!

  • @johthohar

    I look forward to it! It just seems I have a lot to do before I can read it 🙁

    I’m new to web discussions like this one, the only other one I’ve participated in was the Vin vs Jon Snow and that wasn’t nearly as enjoyable as this cage match, after all this hasd been civalised and has made me want to read the books, its amazing what a difference civil fans make.

    @ Ashamed WoT Fan

    There will always be people who aren’t civil, and unfortunatly if there are too many then they can ruin it, I reckon there’s probably the same proportion of fans that act like that, but because there are more fans in total there appears to be more. Besides so long as you don’t act like that then there is no reason to be ashamed! After all you are proving that not ALL WoT fans are like that!

    And wooo Vin’s closing the gap (not convinced its enough but still!)

  • Torrin

    Shouldn’t the poll be closed now?

  • dpomerico

    One more hour–noon, ET.

  • King of Pants

    It doesn’t close until Vin wins.

  • Torrin

    I think my time conversion might be wrong…

  • King of Pants

    Time for Vin’s 1,500 last minute votes.

  • Tiam

    Dexterstjock@- Exactly.

    While comments above I would alrgely agree with about Tays it is impossible to tell. I love a good speculation but in these circumstances were genres and fantasy worlds meet I think its better to deal in certainties. At least the it avoids confusion for the other side who may not have read both series of books. I appreciated a couple of the Mistborn fans putting up actually passages so I could judge Vins power.

  • Serenegoose

    Ah, well. just over 10% in it in the end. A shame, but at least the contest was enjoyable.

  • Windy

    I’m unfamiliar with the Malazan series, but after a bit of Wiki-ing and reading about QB from the fans, I voted for QB. I love Mistborn, and I love Vin, but without the power of Preservation in her, I think there are a lot of tricks up QB’s sleeves that she would not have the ability to avoid. Yet giving her the power of Preservation would have been too much like god-modding (literally), so I’m satisfied with the result.

    The civility of the comments on here are such an improvement over last year’s finale!

  • Stephanie N Ihejirika

    Oh, Vin! I’m not so much for the logistics. I’ve never heard of Quick Ben– I was just hoping Vin would win. Going back to her battle with Abercombie’s character (whose name escapes me) she was amazing. This fight wasn’t as entertaining and the last line was super corny but it was a good run. Yeah, Suvudu! Can’t wait til next year.

  • Ivan Sullivan

    It’s sad to me that after this is all over and QB comes out on top, I don’t find myself wanting to read Malazan. I love Brandon Sanderson admittedly, but this aversion doesn’t come from any fan based loyalty. The big thing is when QB took out Pug. I’d read a lot of Pug’s series in High School, and I feel that I’d grown out of it. I felt that it wasn’t compelling anymore because the characters were too powerful to be any fun to read about. I mean, in a set universe, how many times can the world be in threat from some outside power beyond previous experience come about. especially when it happened two or three times in the first story arc. At the end of that arc, the opposing forces were already at the galactic level. My point is that it became like the Dragon Ball series where a new more powerful baddie needed to be created every installment. Just how big are things going to get? It’s possible the Malazan’s initial story might be worth reading; however, if QB really was able to take on Pug, as Malazan’s fans seemed confident, than I think I’d pull a Matrix, and tell my self: okay, and here is where the series ends for me. That’s if I ever bother to read it. Maybe I’m wrong, and the author had always had a place planned to end it, and things in his head just get that big before it comes it comes to that, but from what I’ve heard, it doesn’t seem that way. I’ll seriously laugh at myself if I find by looking into the matter that the series has been done for a few years.

  • Ivan Sullivan

    Ha ha ha ha. Lol lol. he he.. I still don’t want to read it.

  • David Dominguez

    @Ivan Sullivan
    You obviously don’t know what your talking about.

  • Anton Wentzel

    @Ivan Sullivan

    Rather than trolling your post as is the tendency here. I would rather say that I have read the WoT series, the Fiest lot as well and quite simply the Malazan series is very good.
    You would be doing yourself a disservice by not reading it if you are a fantasy fan. This whole “cage match” thing seems very emotive because fantasy fans are generally very attached to their heroes and heroines.
    Having read most fantasy series out there, I would advise you to read the Malazan lot in order. Most fantasy suffers from linear plot progression from primary and secondary plotlines. When convergence occurs, generally the conflict is resolved, perpetrator revealed and ultimately overcome.
    What makes Erickson different is the sheer number of plot’s and characters. Normally fantasy novels have a variance of perspective, that is a strategic one a mid-level perspective of notable characters and a “on the ground” or operational perspective. Erickson has some confusion in this regard, but the story is worthwhile.
    Also Erickson does a good job of not over explaining things.
    The line between good and evil is vague at best and you get to follow a plot line which forces you to empathise with a protagonist which would be classically described as being on the wrong side.
    It’s a good read and well worth the time.
    As the series isn’t really finished I am enjoying the author’s masterful handling of the climax and the development of the multiple plotlines.

  • Monty

    So why is it that Quick Ben is fighting Vin at his strongest when Vin does not get access to Preservation’s full power? I mean really that is just not right. Vin with full power would trash Quick Ben being able to alter his fundamental makeup. That being said i understand that giving Vin all that power would disadvantage everyone but ruin.

  • Sir Read-a-Lot

    Good match. I’m sorry Vin didn’t win, but I’m not sure if she could have beaten QB. My only complaints are:
    1) I would have liked to see a Duralumin + Atium push.
    2) I don’t think illusion could have fooled steel or iron.

    other than that, well done.

  • Terracapri

    Completed Malazan book 10 and now I am intrigued about Mistborn. Guess I’ll read it soon then. Thanks to gods of suvudu for a very entertaining and informative battle series!

    Re: Ivan
    Quick Ben is a squad-mage of malazan army, not even a high-mage and is NOT the most powerful character in the Malazan world. In the first book itself, Anomander Rake (archmage, ascendent, could have been but refused to be a god) dwarfs all others in terms of sheer power and character.
    What makes QB interesting and likeable is his audacity to challenge gods, a matching intellect to outmaneuver them and an awesome squad to support him.
    Its much later in the series when most of his original squad is dead, that he starts to exercise his magic muscles to bring down the high and mighty, but by then he is just a side character.
    This book is about the fallen, no matter how powerful you are, you can fall and even gods can be torn asunder.
    What I want to say is that this series is a damn good read and may seem over the top with our fanboy rantings. To have a look at other series, that’s what this match is about 😉

  • Seidan1

    The Mazalan Book of the Fallen series is on par with A Song of Ice and Fire as the best fantasy series I have ever read!

  • Seidan1

    *Malazan even…….

  • Tarun

    Bah…Quick Ben should have lost against Pug. And if you were going to pit him against Vin, then you should done it when Vin had all the powers of Preservation.

  • Three words: GLaDOS vs Shodan!

    That should be the next cage match!

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